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89 ford aerostar eddie baur edition

Showing 2 out of 9 Posts | Show 7 Hidden Posts
Question From unizen on 89 ford aerostar eddie baur edition

When van is driven,it stalls and starts up again. once in awhile it will completely stall, i start it again and it runs fine. I have replaced ignition coil, Ignition module, distribitor w/ pick up coil, fuel pump, fuel filter. the only thing i haven't replace is the EGR and I can't find that. I seriously need help on this.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Just a thought. I've had lots of troubles with the relays. Some stay broken some don't?? The two that can cause your trouble are the fuel pump relay and the engine control relay. They aren't that expensive even at a dealer.

If Ford is consistant with color coding the fuel will have green connector and the EEC will have brown if they not marked. They may be in a box under hood and marked. Good luck,

Response From unizen

Is there a way to test those two relays?

Response From Tom Greenleaf

It's kind of like fixing Christmas lights!! It's easier to just throw them out and the cost is not out of control. If you buy aftermarket ones they fit other devices. I won't leave home without a spare in my glovebox over these silly things that without conscience render you a pedestrian! Tom,

PS: if the problem is intermittent no test will be conclusive. If you are stuck, try tapping on them with the plastic end of a screwdriver, you may get home or to your destination.

Response From unizen Top Rated Answer

I replaced the fuel pump relay what does eec stand for? i also replaced the pcv. it stopped doing when i was driving it all day. it did however do it just once when i was pulling out of a gas station. I think that if this problem ever gets fixed, with all the money i have spent on it i might make it a new mini van ha!

Response From Tom Greenleaf

EEC stands for "Electronic Engine Control" if I'm not mistaken. There are so many abreviations it gets silly! Did you know (and I checked) there is a listing of abreviations and even one for that word! Abr. is the abreviation for itself!!!! Crazy world we live in, Be well,

Response From unizen

Tom I am in the cellular industry, we have a 22 page glossary of abr.
Anyways I'll keep ya update as to my progress with the van that eats my paycheck.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

LOL - I spent most of my time under a car. This computer stuff comes as I chiefly retired. For the longest time I thought MicroSoft was a guy problem that should be discussed with your PCP for the proper RX! (webmasters delete if I've crossed a line here)

On a serious note - if your are still having problems with the van shoot back and if need be I'll do my best to find the answers. Here to help,

Response From DanD

If your van has a 3Lt engine you can stop looking for an EGR valve it doesn’t have one.
With everything you have done, I’m not sure what to tell you other then by your description it sounds like fuel or the lack of.
If you can get your hands on a fuel pressure gauge, you could have it connected for your next trip out and see what the pressure is while the vans doing its thing. The pressure should stay between 30 and 45 psi.
Keep us informed of what you find.

93 Chevy wont start

Showing 2 out of 24 Posts | Show 22 Hidden Posts
Question From jimpower on 93 Chevy wont start

Have 93 chevy truck 5.7 L , truck died like it run out of gas (I wish - not the problem) will turn over but fuel pump not operating
When you turn the key get no power to fuse (ecm-b 20a - should be hot get nothing) - pump relay - fuel pump in addition the service engine soon light does not come on when key in run during self test and unable to get anything thru OBD (swapped out bulb with known good one still nothing)
Have checked all fuses - pump relay - oil/fuel pressure switch and pump all are operational when powered directly from + terminal
Seems the pump relay fuse not receiving power - have the standard Haynes manual but shows 1 orange wire when in fact there are 2 grey? so did continuity check from fuse to relay to pump and wiring there is good,not sure what the relationship is between ecm-b and service engine light but it must be telling me something. ECM wire ?
Any help would be appreciated dont think it is a component feel like it is a power supply problem

Response From Hammer Time

If your not getting power at either side of the fuse with the key on check the fusible links at the starter.

Response From jimpower

First thanx for quick response ,is this the puple starter solonoid wire? if so where is it fused, looks like it runs from starter directly to ignition in cab I have checked for pwr with key turned to on and no voltage present cant see anything physically wrong and dont see where it is fused

Response From Hammer Time

No, the purple wire is the starter trigger wire. Your looking for red wires attached to the main terminal along with the battery cable. They are special fuse wire that will melt internally. Pull on each one and see if any stretch.

Response From jimpower

OK that makes more sense to me have positive cable with 12gauge orange fusible link - this carries on to junction box could not strech orange link - at junction box checked all other links specifically black link attached to red wire and it does not stretch (does this go to alternator ) will keep looking thanx again

Response From Hammer Time

There should be more than one. One will be for the alternator and others power other things. Look at the back of your fuse box too and make sure nothing is wrong there.

Response From jimpower

Really not having much joy -at junction box with key on have power to all fusible link wires -including red wire and voltage at the other end at alternator still cant get power at ecm-b fuse either side with key on and no service engine soon light on bulb check could it be a bad ecm?

Response From Hammer Time

If you have power coming into the fuse box, just follow the bus bar to find out where your losing it. If that fuse is dead, others should be also unless the fuse box is bad.

Response From jimpower

The fuse I have been checking with no power to it is under hood at junction box for fuel pump relay it has 2 grey wires going to it but have no idea how to trace its power source wiring diagram shows 1 orange wire going to it which has me confused am I going down the wrong path where does this fuse get power from ? is it not supposed to be hot at all times?

Response From Hammer Time

If that has gray wires then it's inline with the fuel pump and will only be powered when the fuel pump is powered. The gray wire is the line to the pump.

Response From jimpower Top Rated Answer

OK seem to be going in circles where is ECM-B mini fuse this is what powers the fuel pump correct? thought it was underhood adjacent fuel pump relay really confused now appreciate your patience

Response From Hammer Time

There is no ECMB fuse in that truck.
The orange wire is powered by a fusible link and the red wire by the ignition switch.

Response From jimpower

Nice shows how much I know the systym ,will chase the orange and red wires to see where I am losing power again appreciate your help have had enough for today it is miller time the first cold one is for you

Response From jimpower

What fusible link powers orange wire ?
Engine turns over and have spark so dont think ignition/red wire the issue
Have continuity on orange wire up to ECM from relay
Also no SES light when ignition turnrd to run and SES light when trying to read codes at data link could this be connected in any way looks like a seperate curcuit

Response From Hammer Time

Your not making any sense. If your testing for power to the fuel pump relay, then you go to the relay and test the wires for power. Nobody cares about continuity or what else in the car works. Just test the wires for power.

Response From jimpower

Continuity to check for break in curcuit and to trace wires , not seeing any voltage on orange wire anywhere so trying to determine where it is being lost as everything seems to check out

Response From Hammer Time

Have continuity on orange wire up to ECM from relay

I don't know what your measuring but that orange wire doesn't even go to the ECM. It goes to a fusible link as I already stated. The link should be at the starter.

Response From fescom

Think you scared him off Hammer!!!! lol

O maybe not.

Gotta love flow charts tho.

Response From jimpower

Fescom if you have something positive to add that is fine if you just want to highjack thread because you think this is fun get a life

Response From fescom



Response From jimpower

Well I physically followed orange wire from relay in to wire bundle where it is tied in with 2 other orange wires , the 3 orange wires are connected to 1 orange wire thru the firewall to the ECM wiring harness the starter has 2 wires purple trigger wire and positive battery cable which has fusible link attached

Response From Hammer Time

The branch of the wire you saw going to the ECM would be a branch of the power feed to the ECM not from it. The rest of the wire goes to a link where it's fed from. That would also be the reason that you don't have a check engine light. The same link powers the ECM. Apply power to that wire and I bet it starts right up.

Response From jimpower

You are correct was just about to post it went back out and jumped from the terminal to orange wire bypassing fusible link and shazam pump works and ses light on that is good to find had physically checked fusible link but wire did not strech assumed it was ok but is obviously the cause of the fault
OK Hammer thanks for the education and feedback

Response From Hammer Time

Glad you were able to get to the bottom of it.

Fuel pressure regulator

Showing 2 out of 13 Posts | Show 11 Hidden Posts
Question From robster on Fuel pressure regulator

Hi, i own a classic car, with SU carb. i noticed some amount of fuel underneath the carb coming from the overflow valve, i was thinking the fuel pressure might be overcoming the fuel needle regulator, which i already replaced with viton tip.
is it advisable to use a fuel pressure regulator? thanks--Bob

Response From Hammer Time

Hi, i own a classic car, with SU carb. i noticed some amount of fuel underneath the carb coming from the overflow valve, i was thinking the fuel pressure might be overcoming the fuel needle regulator, which i already replaced with viton tip.

I don't know but it really sounds like somebody is over thinking this situation. There was no mention of the engine flooding or running bad. I think that factor alone would tell you the carb is not flooding. It may simply have a leak somewhere

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Actually not sure if it's even running at all right now. Carb parts replaced or opened still requires knowing it's OK and we don't,


Response From Discretesignals

I don't think I have ever seen an overflow valve on a carb before. Don't think it would be a good idea to have the fuel flowing all down the carb and onto a hot engine. Maybe it is a vent? HT is right, we don't know if the carb is actually leaking or overflowing. Hopefully the OP responds and doesn't leave us in the dark.

Response From robster

at first the engine is running fine then probably after few miles the car stalls and i smell fresh gas, i open the hood then gas flows down the overflow tube, it stalls maybe because the excess gas floods the spark plugs.
plugs were pretty dark when i took it off.
will post pics of the carb later

Response From Hammer Time

Another thing to consider is many of these carbs uses cork floats and they can become soaked with fuel and no longer float. That will make fuel level too high in the bowl.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

OK - It runs then the fuel seen after a stall I take it. Now let's be careful for fire and use some common sense. It would probably run OK or fair cold with extra fuel like a choke does anyway and reject that as it warms. High fuel level in a bowl makes for higher % of fuel to air ratio and would show on plugs.
I think this is going to take finding some exact carb #s and specs that if you have such a car you should want to have anyway.

It's hard not to be involved with old cars in general to quickly know where to get what parts and specifications up to full blown diagrams and factory service manuals if not for you then for another to help you.

#1 for today is not to allow a fire till totally known fixed. Be ready now all the time while messing with it.

Next consider joining a club for these cars as it does fall under the cars of interest IMO and there should be out there with a bunch of folks who live and breathe these things AND know where you can find what!

I'll try when I can to see what I find out there on these if I can but have to some real things too not just be here all the time.

Any more info you find do post it and we'll see what we can come up with for an approach,


Response From robster Top Rated Answer

i have a 1972 classic mini, it has a manual fuel pump, i mean the pump is attached to the engine. (not electronic), sorry im new to cars.
i am tempted to use those Gum out fuel system cleaner but im thinking it might eat up the viton rubber tip and may start a leak again.

and to add, i got a chance to see the carb float and didnt see any way to adjust it.

thank you

Response From Discretesignals

We don't have the vehicle here in the states, so access to service information is nil.

Is this SU carb something you would find on a motorcycle?

If the carb bowl is overflowing, was the seat replaced along with the needle? How much trash did you find sitting in the carb bowl? The float could be leaking allowing it to sink and keep the needle valve open.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

We are following each other around with a few here DS - no problem. I do think a few of these did get legally sold to the US new back then along with some other impossible to fix British Leylands cars and more.

Carb probably is like for a motorcycle. Has to be in need of a total redo probably every 5-10 years at least if used! Whatever type float and bowl is probably full of junk. Rust mud will become chips of rust foul up the show and floats -- doesn't matter if brass, plastic, a composite or what will absorb weight or hollow brass ones leak thru a pinhole to solder after dried and set again.

One common spec I already mentioned was to weigh them. When not part of the spec you get a measurement of when it will float or perhaps some sight glass on the side but doubt it on this.

The end all trouble is if you had a brand new whole carb at the ready you still set it to the car once installed for fast idle when cold and idle when warm. Gets worse - some were made (general for cars and vehicles) such that you changed them for Summer and Winter or long term use in High Altitude or not OR if another country for the fuel quality available could be in the cards.

This is where you need some real hands on experience for this. Rust mud and chips will usually (if any) come out with a magnet. Carb cleaners should be fine to use to clear any ports up to fine wire and blow them thru here and there knowing they are open and work properly.

It's gets trickier yet. Rest of total tune-up and how good engine is as a whole must be known OK before you get accurate settings on a carb or it's a game of ping pong to get them to run as intended,


Response From Tom Greenleaf

Helps to know what it is but I personally don't know these cars well at all newer or older. Engine mounted fuel pumps are about all limited to the pressure of a spring inside them not elsewhere so really doubt this is too much pressure.

You may not see any adjustment for float/device for these whacked type carbs or even more universal ones but rather bend tabs having the setting #s at hand and probably need to weigh any float if not recently known OK it it's heavy it will sink and fuel will flow like it need to have more and doesn't so there would be your fuel leaking.

I can't possibly come up with specs for this carb exactly or even a good guess. You would at a minimum need carb part #s and then find the specs and settings for it. Rebuild kits usually come with that but no promises.

If you or someone VERY familiar with the carb is available you can take top off of most and watch a float rise in fuel and push needle valve shut before it's too full. A lost art for many now to set and adjust one with zero info for exact carb.

Again - IMO your leak isn't from pressure but a problem with fuel not being shut off for any reason right at the carb,


Response From Discretesignals

Would help to know the year, make, model, and engine size.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Whatever this set up and vehicle is do you even know what specs are suggested?

Carb suggest a mechanical fuel pump usually which itself will only pump so much pressure and if electric you choose the spec when you get one if in line or however done on this thing.

"Needle Valve Regulator" really is if like carbs do just an on/off flow needle to seat that IMO isn't too fussy about pressure just allows fuel into carb bowl as floats drop in the common carbs designs. 4-6 PSI is about right for most.

In short you need to know what it is now and what you require. The leak for now is probably needle valve I would call it is way off adjustment or can't "seat" to shut off flow,


2001 ford windstar

Showing 3 out of 3 Posts
Question From bugzzy on 2001 ford windstar

2001 ford widstar 3.8L/6 cyl 110,000 miles

Hello, I am helping my mom with her mini van, its been sitting in back yard for about a year and half cause of transmission issues. I was gonna get it towed to transmission shop but ran into problems when she couldnt find the key, so i called up a lock smith and payed him $150 to make the key. After he programed key, he attempted to start a couple times then said, there you go and left.

My mom said the van was started and moved maybe 4 months ago and ran fine then.

So im wondering if this new key was programmed right or if there is another problem like bad gas sticking up the fuel pump. It does have a full tank of gas. When I turn the key to the on position, all idiot lights work, theft light comes on for a few seconds ,then goes out, crank the motor and it turns over good, but dosnt show any signs of starting, it is not getting fuel, or spark, or both. When I turn the key to the off position, the theft light flashes.

couple things I tryed, was locking the van up and using the keyless entry on the door(read that some where) maybe that would reset the pat. Then poured alittle gas into the intake to see if I couldnt get a hickup out of her. Nothing. One other observation, I dont here fuel pump when key is turned to on postion.

I wanted to ask some pros what you think before I have it towed to the garage. Is there a way to know if the pat key is programed right, and or if it is the pat system causing the no start condition. I would rather the lock smith come out and get it right before towing it to the garage if thats the problem.

Thanks for any help, Brett

Response From Sidom Top Rated Answer

Well considering it's sat so long it's hard to say if it's a programming issue or something else..... The easiest thing to do would be to read the codes and see if there is any anti-theft codes. If there is, clear them and try to start it again. If they return then the locksmith would have to redo the keys.

If there are no codes then you are going to have to treat it like a no start and start from scratch. See what you are missing, fuel or spark and go from there depending on what you find out............

Response From bugzzy

Thanks Sidom for your quick response,

I will get the codes and let you know

94 S-10 Blazer loss of acceleration

Showing 2 out of 11 Posts | Show 9 Hidden Posts
Question From Sam77 on 94 S-10 Blazer loss of acceleration

About 5 months ago I bought a 1994 S-10 Blazer with a 4.3L Vortec engine code W, 4 wheel drive, auto transmission with roughly 166,000 miles. It wouldn't start and after checking fuel pressure found out the fuel pump wasn't working. I went ahead and bought a new AC/Delco pump, pulsator, strainer, electrical connector w/pigtail, sending unit, dist. cap, rotor, plugs and wires, 2 fuel filters, changed engine oil and filter replaced the exhaust from the cat convertor back (old muffler and exhaust was rusted badly). Dropped the fuel tank and cleaned it out and installed the pump and sending unit. Put the tank back in the vehicle, installed one of the new fuel filters in the fuel line and put all the ignition stuff I bought in it. Put a fuel pressure gauge on it and made sure everything was working. I had fuel to the pressure gauge at the schrader valve so it seemed I was ready to fire it up. I tried that and it wouldn't start. I had hot blue spark but no fuel was getting to the plugs. I read in my manual that any problems found with the CMFI unit the entire assembly should be replaced. Well I was short on cash so I pulled the upper plenum and took the unit out, sprayed carb cleaner in the poppet valves and rusty nasty smelling fuel came out. Used some air (low) and blew everything dry and reinstalled it. Put on a new plenum gasket and bolted everything back together. After everything was bolted down and electrical connectors were back together I got in turned the key and within a few cranks of the engine it fired up. I let it warm up while I cleaned up the shop and took it for a drive. Everything was working fine. Drove it everyday to work for just over 4,000 miles then one day on the way home on the highway going up a hill I noticed I was losing power. Never did die but I had to step lightly on the peddle. Anymore than that and the engine rpm's fell. I made it home and when the weekend came I took it back out to the shop and decided to do some testing. Didn't know about this forum but I had the repair manual.....heck I can fix this myself...yeah right. I read in the manual that if the fuel pressure didn't approach 61lbs. on acceleration that the pressure regulator on the CMFI unit was bad and it should be replaced and this past weekend I replaced it. Well after doing some further reading I found out that its a good idea to replace the fuel line assembly (nut kit). I didn't do that and I really didn't look over the plenum to see if there was any wash. Well it's still doing the same thing it was doing. I put a fuel pressure gauge on the schrader valve and here is what I found out. With the key on/engine off and the fuel pump running I have 60lbs. as soon as the pump shuts off the pressure drops to 58lbs but within a couple seconds climbs back up to 60lbs. I turned the key off and let everything set for 10 minutes and the fuel pressure then was 58lbs. I started the engine and the pressure was between 51lbs. and 58lbs. (needle was fluttering back and forth). I increased the throttle to 2,000 rpm's and the pressure gauge needle flutters between 49 and 60lbs. Around 2500 rpm's and the engine starts to cut out, bog down or whatever. It won't throttle up anymore than that. It starts good and idles good and I can drive it in town but I can't take it out on the highway. I put a vacumn gauge on it and at idle it has 19 lbs/inches? and if I increase the throttle it increases to around 21 or 22 lbs/inches. I didn't pinch the return fuel line to see what would happen to the fuel pressure but I think I performed everything else. I'm really leaning towards replacing the fuel line assembly (nut kit) like I should have done when I replaced the CMFI unit. All the fuel pressure readings stay the same with the engine cold or when it's at operating temp. What do you guys think? Where should I go from here? Sure would appreciate any help you can give me. Sorry for the long winded post but I wanted you to know what all I've done.
Also wondering what would make the fuel pressure gauge needle flutter? Don't believe it's supposed to do that.

Response From Loren Champlain Sr

What does the fuel pressure look like with the vacuum disconnected at the pressure regulator? Should be stable, then. If the engine is running lean or rough, the vacuum will be unstable and that will affect the regulator. The Vortecs are know for the fuel feed lines leaking and also the poppet valves on the injectors. If the pressure is stable, although high, with the regulator disconnected, I'd at least 'try' cleaning the injectors/poppets. If you have the capability, I'd take a gas reading of the intake after sitting to see if you have a high CO/HC reading. That should tell you if you have a fuel 'leak'. We've 'fixed' many a poppet leak with cleaning. The "injector cleaner" in a can, IMO, is snake oil. I suppose it's okay for in-between cleanings, but have them cleaned professionally if everything else checks out.

Response From Sam77


Thank you for the reply and advice. I really do appreciate it.

Unfortunately the fuel pressure regulator is attached to the CPI unit under the plenum (upper intake manifold) and has no vacumn line to it so I can't do anything with it. The CPI itself has an electrical connector.
I just replaced the CPI unit so its brand new. The poppet valves also were attached to the CPI so they're new also.
The engine idles perfect and it runs great up to around 2500 rpm's and thats where it starts cutting out or bogging out. It's not hard to start nor does it die even if I hold the throttle pedal to the floor. Just no acceleration.
I went to the parts store and ordered a new fuel line assembly (nut kit..both intake and return lines inside the plenum that fasten onto the hard lines on the outside of the intake manifold) and also ordered the injector electrical connector and another plenum gasket.
I'm going to go ahead and install them and see what happens. Hopefully that will solve my problem.
If not then at least I will know that everything under the plenum (intake manifold) should be good to go.
I will post back here my findings on what happens when I get that done in the next day or two.
Thank you again for your help.


Response From Tom Greenleaf

Sam - no harm intended but for goodness sakes try to separate your thoughts! I've never seen such a run on paragraph in web history!

Ok: Two bits out of all of this. The subject line and a vacuum reading.

22hg at a raised idle when 19hg was the baseline suggests your reading was a "venturi" effect vacuum port not 'manifold actual pressure' -- now get an actual vacuum reading and read it at 2,000 rpm held steady.

This smacks of a restricted exhaust or that you are working on it at about 1 to 2 thousand feet below sea level,


Response From Sam77 Top Rated Answer

Last night at the shop I took off the catalytic convertor and put a piece of straight pipe in its place. Here in my state we don't have vehicle inspections. You could hardly see through the convertor so I thought maybe that was the problem. Nope. Still starts and runs good up to a quarter throttle when it bogs down.
Took the vacumn gauge and hooked it up to the intake manifold and it holds steady in the normal range on the gauge at 19-20 hg. At 2,000 rpm is raises slightly to 21 or 22 hg.
Fuel pressure was the same numbers I posted earlier. Fuel pressure gauge needle is still fluttering too. Hooked the gauge up on my friends dodge mini van and it holds steady doesn't flutter so the gauge isn't at fault.
Don't really know what direction to turn now.
I guess I should have spent the money and let a shop check and fix it. Hindsight...I know.
Any other suggestions? It's the only vehicle I have to drive.

Response From Loren Champlain Sr

Sam; Don't know why I didn't suggest this earlier. It's not a normal symptom, but have you looked at the MAP readings? What if..the MAP isn't seeing a drop in vacuum when under load? I doubt that a TPS would cause this type of symptom, either, but at this point, I'd check it.

Response From Sam77

I didn't think of that either. Will do some reading in the repair manual and see what I have to do to check it out or get the readings. Worth a shot. Will let you know what I come up with. Thank you

Response From Sam77

I ended up taking my S-10 Blazer into a shop and have them fix it.

They found out that when the engine started to bog down that loud noises were coming from inside the fuel tank. They pulled the tank and along with a faulty fuel pump the inside of the tank was loaded with crap. All this combined to make my fuel pressure gauge needle flutter like wild. They told me when they had it hooked up to their machine that when they sprayed carb cleaner through the intake that the engine rpms increased and thats what led them to the gas tank and ultimately the fuel pump.
The pump was under warranty but I guess when the parts store asked about tank contamination the warranty went out the window. After a thorough tank cleaning and installation of a new pump and fuel filter its running like new.
I cleaned out the tank as best I could when I put the old (new) fuel pump in it but evidently I didn't do that good of a job. Only lasted a few months before the crap in there took out the pump.
Thought I would pass along what transpired to all of you. Thank you once again for all your advice.


Response From Loren Champlain Sr

Sam; Thanks so much for the reply. Let's keep our fingers crossed that the pump was the problem. I did have a similar situation, many years ago. We finally, out of desperation, pulled the fuel tank and found newspaper wrapped around the pickup. Turned out that the guy had run out of gas and used a rolled up newspaper as a funnel. Drove us nuts trying to find the culprit, but that took care of the problem. Good luck.

Response From Sam77

No problem Loren. There was alot of crud in the tank that evidently I didn't get out when I replaced the pump a few months ago but I didn't have much to work with like an auto shop does. She runs excellent!!!!
Took it for a 200 mile drive today and she never missed a beat. Way cool.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Ok The vacuum reading is probably ok just off by calibration but useful. It would be lower at 2,000 rpm with an exhaust restriction but really shouldn't ever be steady at 22Hg as that's a bit much. In fact with same test it should spike up there when a quick rev is done but not hold there normally. Air speed/the venturi effect can cause higher vacuum readings but I think you have the actual reading and the suspect item would have been the converter which you seem to have ruled out.

It does belong back in as it's part of the system and may be making improper adjustments with it missing - especially any post converter sensors.

I simply don't know what would be causing the fuel pressure fluctuations you mention and that probably is a source of the trouble,