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96 Eagle Vision very loud/bad engine noise

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Question From RoboDisko on 96 Eagle Vision very loud/bad engine noise

Hey people. Having problems with the Vision again. (96 Eagle Vision (The Vision is a variant of the Dodge Intrepid) 3.5L 24v dohc around 140k)

I was driving it on the interstate. I had been pushing it pretty hard. Redline @ 6600 a few times, 90+ a few times. However, after quite a while of normal interstate driving (just constant speed cruising) I noticed the engine making a noise. It was clearly noticeable in the fairly well noise isolated cabin of the car. If I remember correctly, it quickly got worse, so I engine off coasted most of the remaining mile to our exit. By the time I got it parked it was pretty bad. Upon opening the hood, I noticed the AC belt was on sideways, and immediately thought that was the whole problem. Basically, I decided to just drive the the remaining 5ish miles home. It made all kinds of noises, and shortly after it wouldn't even idle without using the gas pedal. (and the starter was having a hard time cranking the engine) I quickly figured out it was more than the belt, and ended up getting it towed the remaining 1ish mile home. Trying to start the car a few days later after taking all accessory belts off, it started and idled fine, but was still making the clanking sound.

So basically what it was doing; at idle it make a clanking sound like a very noisy lifter. When rpms went up, noise went up significantly. At about 3k rpm, it sounded like the engine was going to blow up, and it wouldn't seem to shift before 3k. When listening to it idle in person, I can identify what I would call a normal noisy lifter in addition to the clanking sound, and this car hasn't been having a noisy lifter to my knowledge.

Here is a crappy really short video of it idling (not the same day it happened):
Here is a video of a similar noise on a newer version of the same engine: link deleted .......... your own videos only allowed

I had read somewhere that it was probably the rockers having issues, so I pulled the intake manifold and valve covers off so I could see what was going on. It didn't look healthy, but I didn't see anything mechanically out of place. The passenger side valve train looked healthy, by the drivers side valve train was much darker and had oil build up, and smelled a bit like burnt oil. I pulled the rocker assembly off from the drivers side, and everything appeared mechanically intact. I haven't gotten a good look at the passenger side because the valve cover cannot be completely removed without moving the AC compressor, and I don't want to do all of that because it looks healthy inside.

Picture of engine rocker assemblies:

I had the engine cranked with the valve covers off while I watched, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. The cranking speed isn't very fast, so I can't actually distinctly hear the clanking sound during cranking. Obviously without a manifold or injectors or spark plugs, the engine didn't start.

After removing the rocker assembly, I noticed that all off the lashers are doing this:
Intake and exhaust, all 12 move up and down freely. Maybe they got cooked?

Ok so I'm confused as to what I should do next to trace this issue down. It seemed like the noise was coming from a valve train, but nothing seems out of place. I think I need to start the engine again and do a better job of isolating where the noise is coming from. Would you agree? Anything I should do before that? Anything else?

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Didn't watch vodeos and not sure that's going to help. You found A/C belt was on "sideways" whatever that means. Is crank pulley in line with the belts or not? Not quite sure how you get one "sideways" unless put on and left that way unless a pulley or that damper is all wrong.


If damper/crank pulley you could be risking this engine instantly if it falls off!


T

Response From RoboDisko

Ok so the AC belt is a V belt, and the taper was facing sideways instead of down. I checked the belt alignment, and it looked fine. I guess it was just loose enough and maybe a rock caused it to get on sideways? I was able to remove the belt with only fingers, so it was loose.

To Discreatesignals;
How can I test to know if it is or isn't rod knock? It seems like if a hydraulic lasher completely failed that it might make the noise as the rocker hit the valve. But IDK.

Also, the engine not idling seems to support that something is seriously out of whack, and I didn't see anything on the valves that was seriously out of whack, which supports that something on the bottom end is messed up.

Would a compression test do any good in isolating the problem?

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Forget belt for now:


Internal Engine Noises: Basics: Valve things= usually regular ticking that gets louder with RPM.
Connecting Rods: Light pounding more noticed without load.


Piston wrist pin: Similar to valve but a double knock.
Rings: Similar to valve more of a snapping or rattling sound. Pronounce upon accelerating.
Crank bearing knocks: Heavy dull, metallic pronounced under heavy load and accelerating.
******************** (Those from a common book of engine noises)****************


These noises usually change when you cancel a cylinder, engine temp related or aggravated. Exceptions to about any. Testing while still running if prudent to do so at all helps narrow it down. When or what and called for then a tear down or enough bad signs you give up on that engine. Just my opinion on this stuff once you would machine and fix anything. Not so possible or practical depending on problem. One thing stands is that if abuse of oil changing (sludge) or plain abuse and broken your chances of fixing goes way down,


T


Compression

Response From RoboDisko

Should I put the engine back together and do a better job at tracing the sound? Is there anything I should check before putting the valve covers back on?

This engine has had good oil changes. I even recently ran seafoam though the crankcase (with the oil) followed up by top-tier synthetic. You can see on the healthy side that it is nice and healthy, no sludge build up at all. The other side, however, isn't so healthy.

Response From Discretesignals

Pull the oil pan off and wiggle the rod ends around. You might be able to find the rod bearing that went south. You can also take the rod caps off with the engine in the vehicle to inspect the damage.

Here is a video of rod knock. Infact that one has a spun rod bearing


Take a video of you revving the engine up and then holding it around 2500 rpm. I bet that knock gets really bad when the engine is floating.

Response From RoboDisko

I used the suggestion of a youtube video to check for rod knock using a screwdriver through the spark plug hole while the piston is on it's way down, and it seems that this engine has bad bearings on #1 and #6 (#1 seems worse than #6). I haven't pulled off the oil pan for an actual visual inspection yet, but I'd say the problem is definitely rod knock.

I didn't put the engine back together to run it, but as I already mentioned, at around 3k rpm the engine sounds like it's going to blow up.

OK so how bad is it to fix? It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to swap in some oversized bearings on the bad rods to compensate for rod and crankshaft wear without pulling the heads... Do you really have to pull the heads to replace rod bearings? Oversized bearings seems like a band-aid, so would it be a lasting fix? Is there even such thing as oversized bearings?

Response From Discretesignals

You don't have to pull the heads to replace rod bearings, but you really need to pull the pan and take a look to see how bad they are.

They do make oversized rod bearings, but that is used when either the crank shaft rod journal and/or connected rod bore is machined to an undersized dimension to maintain the proper clearance between the bearing surface and the journal surface.

If the rod bearing has spun, it is a good bet your going to need a new connecting rod and have the crank journal machined. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to go ahead and find a good used salvage yard engine if you plan on keeping the vehicle.

Response From RoboDisko

Finally got to pulling the oil pan off. It was harder than it should have been... had to remove a bunch of brackets that were covering bolts, and then I had to lift the whole engine several inches from the car to actually get the oil pan out. Anyways...

Looks like my analysis from the top was accurate. #1 had quite a bit of play, and #6 had a bit. I was able to measure 4.7mm of play on #1 with a digital caliper, and around 2mm on #6. The other 4 seemed fine. Upon taking off the #1 rod, there was no bearing material at all.

Here is a video of the rod play:

The oil had lots of metal shavings of course. Looks like 4,400 miles was too much for this engine, even though it had top tier synthetic (Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w-30, the stuff made from natural gas). Perhaps the fact that 10w-30 is the prescribed viscosity for this engine was another contribution... I figured that a meager 5 cold weight difference would only be beneficial...

Feast your eyes on these images...





Ok so would it be possible to just replace the bearings, potentially with oversized ones, and get some more life out of this engine? Or does the rod need replaced and the crank machined? I don't know what it is supposed to look like, but the rod studs look like they might be coming out of the rod..? (see 3rd pic) Is this of concern?

Logic tells me that the bearings are supposed to slide on the crank, which would mean that the damaged rods don't really matter, right?

Just looking for if this is practical to fix, or if it is time to get a new engine or vehicle. What are we looking at?

Response From Hammer Time

Looks like that Crank is wasted. You should be looking for another engine.

Response From Discretesignals

That engine would make a good boat anchor.

Response From RoboDisko

The crank isn't quite as bad as it looks in the pictures. It isn't mirror smooth, but it's not as bad as the rod. (and the rod shouldn't matter because the bearing isn't supposed to spin against it, right?)

Right now I'm wondering how bad it'd be to throw some new (potentially oversized) bearings on it and see how long they last.

I realize that the crank is damaged, and that they are not likely to last long. However, the engine is done, and I don't see any harm it trying?

OK so my question is how much does a bearing typically cost, and where do you shop for one? If they are rather expensive, I'm not going to waste my time. But for a few bucks, I figure it's worth a try, even just for the experience of doing it. Even if the bearing doesn't last long, It should be enough to get it to the junkyard without towing :)

Response From Hammer Time

The crank isn't quite as bad as it looks in the pictures. It isn't mirror smooth, but it's not as bad as the rod. (and the rod shouldn't matter because the bearing isn't supposed to spin against it, right?)

Of course it is. If it doesn't have a perfect mirror finish and the proper oil clearance, it's going to self destruct in short order and yes the rod surface does matter.

You need to stop with the nonsense and get a machinist involved.

Response From Discretesignals


Response From Hammer Time Top Rated Answer

Yeah, I can see he's not taking any advice. I think it's time to close this one.

Response From Discretesignals

Most part stores sell rod bearing sets for those. I don't think you can buy just one pair of rod bearings.

There has to be a small clearance of 0.019 - 0.087 mm between the rod bearing and the crank journal surface for oil to flow through.

The only time you would need to use oversize bearings is when the crank journal has been machined undersize. Sometimes the engine from the factory can have oversize bearings in it, so you need to be sure you install the correct bearing size. If you don't have the correct clearance the bearing will either lock up and spin or you'll end up with low oil pressure and knocking noises.

There are other measurements that have to be within specifications for the rod end and journal listed in the vehicle's service information.

There is a reason the rod bearings got hammered and it is probably due to loss of oil pressure at high rpms. If you want to slap a set of bearings in there for experimental purposes, go for it. I wish you luck. You could probably part out the vehicle or sell the vehicle to a salvage company for a couple of hundred dollars and make some money on it instead of buying a set of bearings that will probably end up getting trashed.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

This is one area of machine work magic that at best you could only make last for a limited time doing everything known. In short, game over for this engine and don't waste more time or money on it.


These parts are machined so precisely when brand new they just about have their own DNA. Meaning you can't even take a crank from the next engine on the assembly line when it was new and put it in another - just believe me.


That is so bad even the best hackery wouldn't last a minute IMO. It's an engine and needs very high precision at points/parts like this if expected to turn at speeds and last a reasonable amount of time at all.


If you want this car to last for you your best chance will be a whole engine that doesn't have this problem AND never did and not fixed up or rebuilt either - they can be found and harder by the minute approaching impractical on all fronts.


The short is this one is done and scrap metal now. Make choices on what your own pain tolerance is on this for time, costs and expectations and go from that.


*************************
Lubrication - a book: If machined perfectly enough and mankind has already done it ages ago now you don't need lubrication at all! Sorry - Google or others probably don't want that even archived on the web anywhere so not much to find on it.


Air alone is enough if you could machine anything that close. Trouble is it was done but for all practicability can only make one then the tools and machining bits and parts are not good enough for another.


Ford made an engine with no need for oil and had no friction. The exercise was just proof that you can't do that for anything for production of more than one so it ain't happening anytime soon for the real world. Try to look it up and bet you can't find it but was made from all porcelain not metal at all. No heat of friction as there wasn't any friction!


Oil is essentially covering up flaws from the get go and totally matters. You mentioned a favorite trusted name brand to you with a viscosity rated on container and the truth is nobody really checked every container or the product was exactly right either.


For whatever reason something went wrong it did and it's in front of you now.


Bummer,


T

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Arrr - what to do? It is a bit funky that one side looks like it's been hotter than the other but not total sludged out IMO.


DS is top shelf and if he heard a rod noise it scares me. You say lifter like? Well idle changed so something happened. Guess I'd compression check right the way it is now and depending on results see if pressuring up thru plug holes for each cyl. at TDC shows a leak out exhaust, into intake or anything noted.


It's certainly worth taking time before declaring it a lost cause. Some noises that can come on instantly that can be without real reason include a split in a valve (compression test would find which cyl) some plugs can go loose or bad even break and you should have noticed something if there. Always note any plug that isn't like the rest and where it came from.


Exhaust noises from spark plug loose, crack in valve, hole in piston (not seen just heard of it from detonation have seen them from hydraulic lock - usually from water entering intake) and a list of strange things either minor or serious up to fatal for an engine cost wise.


Just maybe a flaw only really shows up when engine fully warm even hot inside normally and better stone cold or test OK cold? If that hard to pin down maybe get hold of a scope to look inside plug holes for marks from something that flew around? I have seen that twice from carbed engines that folks would hold a choke open and eat a nail or what was holding it open that made it into a cylinder - game over for both of those engines.


Off my guard a bit as to what else to check and in what order but do keep trying to know for sure what it is/was and yes put it back together if necessary,


T

Response From Discretesignals

I hear a rod knock. Definitely not lifter noises. Might be looking for another engine or car.

1996 eagle talon

Showing 4 out of 4 Posts
Question From wildcardkarmody on 1996 eagle talon

what could an oil leak be from if it's right behind the timing belt?

Response From Tom Greenleaf

YES! There are oil sealing items in there,

T

Response From wildcardkarmody

do you think it's a seal or do you think it's something harder to fix?

Response From Tom Greenleaf Top Rated Answer

On an OHC engine there is a head gasket that is sealing oil but you really have to look and see the origin to know for sure before you tear into it,

T