Shop Dodge Avenger Vacuum Pumps

I let some freon out, but it still has that noise. I will have to evacuate the system and put the correct amount in. Could it possible be the clutch?

No, it's likely a failing compressor for some reason. See if it's still noisy with the exact charge.

Thanks for responces, I will put the correct charge in tomorrow and post the results. The reason I purged it was because and old service manual I have says a 1 second purge is equivalent to pulling a vacuum with a good vacuum pump for a half of and hour ( I took some air conditioning classes years ago).

1 second purge is equivalent to pulling a vacuum with a good vacuum pump for a half of and hour .


Thats a new one to me.... Personally I believe nothing beats pulling a deep vacuum.

Now don't take this wrong, because I'm knocking you but if you remember the theory behind this I would be interested in hearing just for the fact I haven't heard it before. It won't change my routine but I still would like to hear it.....

I will try to find the manual, and post exactly what it says it was a refrigeration service manual. I will post it tomorrow if I can find it.

Thx 4 the info

As HT stated that is an appliance a/c system plus it looks like they are flushing & then recharging. That would probably remove most of the moisture but not the air on an automotive system. Not to mention is now illegal.

I will tell you that procedure sound real similar to purging air out a freon tank in a recycler. Both systems have storage tanks and air goes to the top of both systems where you can purge the air off the top. An automotive system is different, the closest thing is has to a storage tank in the accumulator/reciever drier but there is no way to purge off the top.........

OK, first appliance refrigeration is going to be totally different but what that is saying is that they are using refrigerant as a flushing chemical to clean out the system. The air would still need to be drawn out after but the flush would probably take care of any moisture in the system that would usually be boiled away using vacuum. They refer to is as a "sweep charge", not merely venting.

Yes, but the air collects at the top of the airconditioning system. This is were the shraeder valves are, it should get most of the air out by purging.

Just another additional point to make here.

I don't know when that article was printed but I can tell you that method would be against federal law now, whether on an appliance or a car. You cannot purposely vent refrigerant now.

No, that is not true. You can't simply "purge" air from a motor vehicle.

That theory will work in a container of liquid refrigerant but there is not "top" in a motor vehicle. Besides, the big reason for vacuuming is to boil out the moisture. The air is gone in the first 5 minutes of vacuum, the rest is boiling the water out.

I should butt out as it's already said. Air is not hiding at the top and many MVAC (Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning) systems have ports at the lowest areas so there goes that theory!

HVAC and MVAC share some principles but not all. You home has a constant RPM for example - you car doesn't!

I'm not claiming to be HVAC certified but getting moisture out is primal to A/C anything and simple venting can't do that. Worse - oils used in lubricating compressors are hygroscopic and turn acidic with moisture in motor vehicles. Total destruction if not payed attention to! I believe all PAG oils are hygroscopic and can self destruct.

Lots of things are different - gasses used, compressor styles etc. Cars since model year 1994 are all 134a - homes, refrigerators etc could be all other gasses depending on maker. An ammonia gas was or is one used for home or commercial/use!

T

PS: R-12 was discontinued new by the Montreal Accord and some 40 countries agreed not to make it new after about 1993

I have to agree, it sure sounds like it could be a comp problem and you really have to make sure you have the correct charge to make that call, also make sure the belt is in good shape & the condensor is clean....... Some pressure readings, vent temps & ambient temp would be very helpful

milling; You can't 'just add' freon. It is a very precise measurement. Too much or too little can cause compressor damage.

First off, you can't purge air out of a system that has refrigerant in it. You just vented some refrigerant.

The noise your hearing is the compressor knocking now. It could be overcharged, underlubricated, running too much pressure or just getting ready to lock up.

Have never seen a 5.9 cummings in a ford van before. Sounds interesting.

What was in the orifice tube? Metal powder and shavings?

If so, you should read this:

http://autoforums.carjunky.com/...SOR_FAILURE_P116082/

Definitely would recommend replacing the whole compressor.

Your really not going to find an American company that makes compressors anymore. Most are outsourced. Compressor works used to be made and remanned in the US, but SMP bought them out. Honestly haven't had much trouble with the new import compressors. Denso and Motorcraft make really nice units. The main key is how you service and repair the system that will determine the life of the compressor.

Nothing metallic was on the O tube. It was plugged with hard black corrosion I hope. I was running 38/260 before I removed it.

After a flush , new accumulator, o tube, blower and 7 oz oil, it was running 25/150 with the factory 44 oz of 134a. So I added 2 additional oz to get 34/210

After good operation in the driveway I hit the interstate and had 49 vent air.. I pulled into town and the clutch smoked. First I figured I locked the compressor, but turns out the air gap probably allowed it to slip, or the coil finally failed. Either way it got very hot and I wonder if I coked the oil or refrigerant.

So Denso and Motorcraft are the best.. Thanks for your input.

Are there any extra's you would add to your new ac system if you were building from new? Iv read about additional dryer/filters, R12 Industrial refrigerants,Enviro-Safe ProDry etc?

Thanks! The cummins runs real well. Iv got a kingpin front and all the gear. But just not enough time or garage head room.

You shouldn't be adding extra refrigerant to get the pressures you think you should have. You charge the system to the required weight and then you analyze the system from the pressures. There are numerous things that will make those pressures vary dramatically including but not limited to blower speed, ambient temperature, condenser condition, cooling fan efficiency and restrictions in the system.

You are overcharged now and probably should evacuate and recharge and start over. I would really question what plugged that tube up also. That isn't a natural occurrence. Something plugged it up and that something is likely still there. If it isn't pieces of the compressor, it could be sealer.

I would really question what plugged that tube up also. That isn't a natural occurrence. Something plugged it up and that something is likely still there. If it isn't pieces of the compressor, it could be sealer.

Yes I'm concerned with the plugged Orifice as well. But no metal, again.
The AC system was removed and capped for almost one year during engine rebuild, so I hope it was corrosion from the inside. I'm not the original owner so have no idea what happened before me.


I'd hate to replace the compressor and have it fail. My compressor is still functioning as only the clutch failed.

Is it safe to say, if my new o-tube has any deposits now after only a few hours of operation.. Replace everything? If its clean, install the new compressor?

Are you sure about that? Clutches usually don't simply smoke for no reason. It's usually due to something happening inside the compressor whether it be high pressure or just binding up for whatever reason.

I do a lot of AC work and I NEVER change just a clutch.

Are you sure about that? Clutches usually don't simply smoke for no reason. It's usually due to something happening inside the compressor whether it be high pressure or just binding up for whatever reason.

I do a lot of AC work and I NEVER change just a clutch.

Absolutely not that's why I'm here.

Even though my compressor turns smooth and doesn't leak, I imagine me overcharging by lowside pressure damaged it.

Iv got a new condensor, denso compressor, accumulator, o tube, Serpentine Belt and dorman bypass pulley in a rockauto cart. More supercool pag 46 to..
Id replace the hoses, but they are custom long length.

Is there anything else I need, or different vendor? evap?
Whats a good diy hose flush?

Thanks again.

Sounds like you've got it covered. What's the bypass pulley for?

I'd make sure the cooling fan is pulling plenty of air as that is the most common compressor killer. That and overcharging.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the hoses. Any kind of flush will get them clean.

Sounds like you've got it covered. What's the bypass pulley for?

I'd make sure the cooling fan is pulling plenty of air as that is the most common compressor killer. That and overcharging.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the hoses. Any kind of flush will get them clean.

Bypass pulley is for "just in case" so I'm not stranded or faced with huge on the road expenses..

Iv been flushing with lacquer thinner. Or should I call it soaking as I don't have the means to move the lacquer thinner very fast..

Is lacquer thinner safe for the hoses? Or any other diy methods?

Quick comment on that you don't have a means to move lacquer thinner thru fast? You would need a LOT of compressed air by volume at some pressure. Don't mess up the job leaving thinner in this system..........


T

Quick comment on that you don't have a means to move lacquer thinner thru fast? You would need a LOT of compressed air by volume at some pressure. Don't mess up the job leaving thinner in this system..........

T

Iv got plenty of dry clean shop air. I initially used one of the car parts store aerosol can flush, only to find out I needed lacquer thinner anyway to rinse the mineral spirits. I'm still unclear the best method.

I have my doubts I removed all the deposits from my tube in fin condensor. But also reluctant buying new condensor with the micro passages..

Just now removed. There are still a few black specks on the screen, which were also seen on my condensor flush. I agree, some passages could be blocked. And I remember when I was blowing it out. I had it blowing, and then the sound, or amount of air coming out changed. I blew it off, blaming my poor hearing, but now think some debris must have moved around to cause that.

No, replace the condenser. You can't flush most of them. They are a bypass design where one manifold feeds all the tubes. You can have 90% blockage and still blow through the couple that aren't blocked and think it's clear. Unless it is a serpentine design, then you could flush it but it would take a lot of chemical and air pressure.
Don't even mess with the evaporator. That will be fine. You can't blow everything out of it anyway.

I want to know the answer(s) that may come with that question too. Have seen the warnings on assorted things like that to use "only XYZ" (their own) oils and you don't always know if unique or what.


To me most are an engine of sorts some quite like an engine. Compressors for shop and vacuum pumps just opposite in some ways. Have a Dayton now old with a sight glass for oil and at the risk of wrecking it put in synthetic engine oil Been fine for ages, runs smooth and never fails to achieve max vacuum which is the game however you get there.


Put same in an air compressor and it too is old and works perfectly - very much a piston thing on top.


If left to a default answer I'd have to say use only what it says. To be the Devil's advocate windshield washer fluid if not now once said only use stuff made by the manufacturer! What!!


Another expensive hydraulic thing that attaches to my own truck says use only there stuff for some unreal price - did and later to find out it's synthetic ATF - arseholes -and I went out of my way to pay tons more for the same crap.


Interested in what others suggest and can't say for YOUR specific pump. Guess it's proven (if only by me) that some of it is bull but also know some isn't,


T

According to link deleted ............ not allowed
Its mineral oil.

NTE783932

Thanks rebar: Link may have to go but I'll post a question and response from it..........
Q.Don't mean to hijack the post, But could vacuum pump oil be used in an air compressor? I'm thinking JB Black Gold might be better oil than Sears sells for air compressors. Just wondering out loud. John
---------------------------------------------------------
A.Yes. Compressor oil is usually just mineral oil. In most reciprocating compressors, you could probably use just about any oil that doesn't foam and isn't too viscous.
******************************************
This is still under advisement to use what a specific product/item called for as I personally couldn't speak for ALL of the "things" out there.
The key to many things is range of temperatures lube will work + lack of foaming. Now throw in does it need to be "rubber friendly" and or "hygroscopic" (moisture absorbing such as PAG oils and even brake fluid?)
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
To your van and the subject line alone: Your pic is enough to toss that compressor as part of the fix total fix. I suggest when possible to go completely NEW w clutch NOT rebuilt. Rebuilt anything makes me wonder what the heck the one that was rebuilt was like when you really can't know if it was fit to rebuild or not for sure. Did you get one from a wrecked vehicle or one from some wear out or even an intermittent fault? I totally distrust shaft seals being replaced. Can easily test fine on a bench and NG when in the real world use.


Not compressors (automotive) but other assorted things I pay the 'core' charge if a common item and redo that one myself later depending on the failure, cost of rebuild parts factored in also.


Good luck with this job. You've said you really need to avoid "down" time with this vehicle so all that more important to get it right the first time. A/C if job fails so easily puts you right back just as bad off as the original problem or worse! Not a great place to "save a buck" now area of things you might fix in general,


Tom

Woops, my bad..

Another thread I read people questioned if baby oil was suitable for vacuum pumps.

But at $7 quart for NTE783932 you cant go wrong..

And on the topic of oil.. Last time, I pulled triple evac and put 4 oz PAG 46 in the accumulator and 3 in the high side since I didnt take the hoses off the compressor but did drain it.. In hind site, that probably wasn't the best approach.

Should I put 3 oz in the evap, 1 oz in the condensor inlet, and 3 oz in the compressor before evac?

I like to leave the new accumulator closed until the very last step after Iv pulled vacuum on the rest of the system and filled a little over atmospheric with 134a.

"I like to leave the new accumulator closed until the very last step after Iv pulled vacuum on the rest of the system and filled a little over atmospheric with 134a."


What do you mean by that? Fine if you can plug off parts of the system to vacuum and yes accumulator should have desiccant in it you don't want to expose to air for long at all.
Full vacuum is full vacuum w only the slightest variation if close or at sea level is 29.92Hg. Know your altitude and if significant fractionally can deduct 1 Hg per 1,000 ft. of elevation. The idea is air and moisture out. Moisture can't exist in a vacuum as it will boil off.
Jury mostly still out on if you can get moisture back out of PAG oils or desiccant and partly concluded you could it you had it both in a vacuum and quite hot - not proven.
Just FYI if you missed it in any info. Air contains moisture (bad) plus doesn't condense at any reasonable pressure (1,000s of PSI) so of no use and a total screw up if mixed in with refrigerant results would be all kinds of erratic.


BABY OIL: I can't suggest that as it isn't rated for exactly what it is, what % pure or what else could be in it? So NO if there's any choice. A/C is just too costly to take chances with unknowns. Enough can go wrong without that,


T

"I like to leave the new accumulator closed until the very last step after Iv pulled vacuum on the rest of the system and filled a little over atmospheric with 134a."


What do you mean by that? Fine if you can plug off parts of the system to vacuum and yes accumulator should have desiccant in it you don't want to expose to air for long at all.
Full vacuum is full vacuum w only the slightest variation if close or at sea level is 29.92Hg. Know your altitude and if significant fractionally can deduct 1 Hg per 1,000 ft. of elevation. The idea is air and moisture out. Moisture can't exist in a vacuum as it will boil off.
Jury mostly still out on if you can get moisture back out of PAG oils or desiccant and partly concluded you could it you had it both in a vacuum and quite hot - not proven.
Just FYI if you missed it in any info. Air contains moisture (bad) plus doesn't condense at any reasonable pressure (1,000s of PSI) so of no use and a total screw up if mixed in with refrigerant results would be all kinds of erratic.

T

Yes I pull vacuum all day or all night but have been known not to keep up on pump oil changes. I wonder if that's why I broke the pump coupler? I also discarded a accumulator with less than 1 hour run time.

I read about double end capped pag oil and ended up choosing supercool's brand. But still not sold on drawing the oil in after evac instead of pouring it in three different spots since I don't have the gear to prevent air from entering .

I don't have the gear to prevent air from entering .


So, you just run another 5 minutes of vacuum after putting the oil in.

Yes on that^^^^
Without knowing exact equipment you are using it can be hard to describe just how you can be close to 100% sure no air is in the vehicle's system.
Ex: I can use TWO sets of gauges attached one with low (blue hose) to vacuum the other to high (red) and vac the gauge sets as well. This with system already to go and has proven a well held vacuum. Now under vacuum can add (measure weight of refrigerant all along to at least an ounce) liquid or gas to high side watching low side set go into pressure not vacuum. That is about proof that air can't get into something under pressure.


Depending on your equipment and you have to know your own and what is pressure, vacuum, refrigerant or possible air at all times.


Spits of air seem to be expected by the vehicle makers so desiccant is used. It can only handle so much.


Unknown how much moisture expressed in PPMs will cause problems? I do know of systems ages old known from new that can perform as new with total attention to any work they might need along the way.


Do know that when system is ready to engage compressor no matter how that's accomplished it needs oil quickly only carried along at about the time it can blow cool air. IDK - bet a lot of quick failures are running a new compressor dry of oil taking too long to have charge proper or real close. High buck equipment can do that before you even allow a compressor to engage. Most folks wouldn't have that caliber of equipment.


As said, risks are high for things to get costly. Mistakes are #1 on the list,


T

Do know that when system is ready to engage compressor no matter how that's accomplished it needs oil quickly only carried along at about the time it can blow cool air. IDK - bet a lot of quick failures are running a new compressor dry of oil taking too long to have charge proper or real close. High buck equipment can do that before you even allow a compressor to engage. Most folks wouldn't have that caliber of equipment.


As said, risks are high for things to get costly. Mistakes are #1 on the list,


T

I don't have High buck equipment , and I'm not trying to insult anyone by questioning why another 2 oz through vacuum during charging has a advantage over adding 3 to the evap before evac, as its first in line before the compressor. And Im assuming you meant another 2 oz through vacuum during charging, on the .low side

The last, and first time I added per weight, I got 70% in before starting the compressor.

Thanks

As I said before, don't add oil to the evaporator. It will just hinder the cooling.

If you don't want to suck it in during vacuum, just pour the 2 oz into the accumulator, assuming it has one.

As I said before, don't add oil to the evaporator. It will just hinder the cooling.

If you don't want to suck it in during vacuum, just pour the 2 oz into the accumulator, assuming it has one.

Thanks, yes there is a accumulator.

Unfortunately, FedX damaged my new condensor and the accumulator caps were removed when I received it.. The bypass pulley was a mirror image of what I need.. So still waiting.

I noticed the new Denso compressor I have says it has all 7 oz of oil in it.

What should I do? Dump it out and start over with my supercool pag 46 oil spread out in the system?

No, I would just leave it in there but remember to spin it a few times to purge it once everything is hooked up so it doesn't crash when it engages.

No, I would just leave it in there but remember to spin it a few times to purge it once everything is hooked up so it doesn't crash when it engages.

One last question maybe.

After pulling good vacuum, did triple, should I pull 44 oz of 134a in the lowside as a liquid from my 30# jug?

Last time, I think I added some gas and then switched to liquid and got 75% of the charge in before starting the engine.

Whats the correct procedure?

Thanks

You can charge liquid until you start the system, then you have to charge gas. Make sure you use a scale.

I would put nothing in the evaporator.

You really need to have some idea how much of the previous oil is still in the system.

Depending on what the total capacity of the system is, on average I put about 4-5 ounces in the compressor and I add another 2 through vacuum during charging.

You also want to spin that compressor by hand about 10 revolutions before starting the engine to purge all that liquid from the chambers.

I would put nothing in the evaporator.

You really need to have some idea how much of the previous oil is still in the system.

Depending on what the total capacity of the system is, on average I put about 4-5 ounces in the compressor and I add another 2 through vacuum during charging.

You also want to spin that compressor by hand about 10 revolutions before starting the engine to purge all that liquid from the chambers.

The evap is removed and tipped upside down to remove the oil. New condensor accumulator compressor.. So the only residual oil might be in the hoses. I planned on adding 6.5 oz since ford specs 7 oz but I dont have a oil injector.

The evap is removed and tipped upside down to remove the oil. New condensor accumulator compressor.. So the only residual oil might be in the hoses. I planned on adding 6.5 oz since ford specs 7 oz but I dont have a oil injector.


What I suggested will work out just fine then.

Hey Dave

Did you look in the trunk for the manual release?

It should be on the side with the fuel door,guessing drivers side behind the trunk interior trim.

I found that......but where in the he** is the one in the car.... this is crazy.

I'm not too sure on these..
But I remember hearing something about the 'central locking system' and fuel door is released when door locks are unlocked?
Maybe I heard that wrong..just something that came to mind.

Thanks Jim....I'm gonna check it out right now...I'll be back later on...again thanks.

almost sure it's part of central locking as Jim said,

T

Tom.....I understand some of the central locking operation.The part that I don't get is the locking and unlocking of the car door to get the gas door to open... do you use the key or just by pulling up on the lock button? Since this is a vacuum operated system..does the car need to be running? I just know I'm overlooking something.

I really don't know these cars for squat but if it really is a vacuum motor system (I've had several) they work or should a few times more when engine is off with a vacuum storage ball somewhere. This may use a belt driven vacuum pump instead of the engine for source.

Does the thing have an owner's manual in it - I'd look. There probably is a separate way to open jus the gas tank door which wouldn't be in english but perhaps some diagram - near gauge or what I don't know. I do recall before remotes that all doors locked when you used the key to lock the car - perhaps that also opens the gas door - dunno??

T

I've already replaced one on the engine that kinda runs off a cam-like drive....I wonder what other surprises are to be expected?

BTW....THANKS GUYS.

Re: GAS TANK DOOR - NEW In reply to] Edit | Delete | Quote | Reply I've already replaced one on the engine that kinda runs off a cam-like drive....I wonder what other surprises are to be expected?
______________________ Dave - it's a Benzo - expect the unexpected. If there's a simple, logical way to make something operate they engineered it the other way! Just get used to that! T