Shop Discount Timing Covers

Does the crankshaft front seal look like it is leaking and blowing back and up around the timing cover?

I guess I didn't really answer your question. I guess it could be possible but looks like it's coming from that paper gasket behind the timing cover.

Could I just wait on this or would it be easier with the tranny out? I picked up a rear main seal but not sure where it goes and couldn't find it in alldata. I'm thinking I should replace the paper gasket and the crankshaft seal. What do you think? I'd rather wait until the tranny is back in unless you recommend doing it now.

You have to remove the flex plate(flywheel) to get to the rear main seal on the engine.

If you remove the flexplate, make sure you mark its position, so it goes back on in the same place. Some flywheels can only be clocked a certain way, but on some others it can have multiple positions. It won't make a difference on that engine because the interrupter is in the middle of the crank, but it is common standardized practice to clock them in the same position they came off. The reason is is some engines use the flywheel/flex plate as the crankshaft sensor interrupter. Getting the flywheel clocked in a different position throws the crankshaft signal out of time with the actual crankshaft's position. (just some FYI)

Thanks DS. I don't only like fixing my vehicles but also like to know why and how something works. I always appreciated your explanations.

Well, if you ever do a rear main on something like a Volvo that is good information to know.

The gasket kit, with crankshaft seal, only cost me $9.00. That's what I like to see.

When I took the radiator cap off I noticed quite a bit of rubbery sludge on the cap and on the sides of the neck of the radiator. I replaced the antifreeze when I did the intake and didn't really notice as much sludge. I've never added any kind of stop leak or anything but I'm not sure about a previous owner. We've had the van since 2006. Should I give it a good flush or replace the radiator?

Give it a good flush. When your intake was bad it can contaminate the oil. Take the surge tank out and put hot water and degreaser in it. Bleieve it or not Dawn dish soap gets this out nicely. If you have a long baby bottle brush left over from the kids early years get that in there and scrub. Now if this coolant has contamination in it from oil you will need to flush it out. I would first pressure test it. With your trans not in it the lines are unhooked and this would be a great time to be sure your trans heat exchanger inside the radiator isn't cross contaminating. Put the cooling system up to pressure and see if any antifreeze comes out the cooler lines of the trans. If so, change the radiator and flush the system.

Everyone has their preferred product to clean the residue out. I use Simple Green or Jungle Jake to do it. You put about 1/2 gallon of it in the system, top it off with water, and run the engine for about 25-30 minutes at 2000 RPM. Then idle down for two minutes and drain. Fill up with clean water and repeat until the water comes out clean. Then add half the amount of your cooling system capacity of pure antifreeze. Finish filling with water. Some water will remain in the block, which is why you want to add straight coolant first so when all is said and done you will have a 50/50 mix.
The advantage with Simple Green and Jungle Jake is they are biodegradeable, so if it goes down the driveway into some plants or a sewer its not hurting anything. It also smells good, and in a shop something that smells nice is hard to come by so a pleasant change. Also doesn't hurt that you can get the stuff pretty much everywhere. Most radiator flushes are made to remove scale deposits and rust. They aren't that great as degreasers.

Here's the info on the rear main seal.

Print
Removal & Installation



The transaxle assembly must be removed to perform this service. This requires special tooling to support the engine assembly while the transaxle and sub-frame are lowered from under the vehicle.

1. Before servicing the vehicle, refer to the Precautions Section.
2. Remove or disconnect the following:
   WARNING When removing the seal, use care so that no damage occurs to the crankshaft. Once the seal is removed, inspect the crankshaft surface for any nicks or burrs. Repair or replace crankshaft as necessary.
   
   
   Negative battery cable Transmission assembly Engine flywheel Oil seal
   

1. Install or connect the following:
   
   New oil seal lubricated with engine oil, using an Oil Seal Installer tool J 34686 until it is seated properly over the crankshaft Flywheel Transmission assembly Negative battery cable
   
2. Start the vehicle and check for leaks, repair if necessary.

1. Before servicing the vehicle, refer to the Precautions Section.
2. Remove or disconnect the following:
   NOTE Be careful not to damage the crankshaft seal surface with the prying tool.
   
   
   Negative battery cable Transmission assembly Flywheel Crankshaft seal by prying it from out oil seal housing
   

1. Install the new rear seal by using a seal installer.
2. Install or connect the following:
   
   Flywheel Transmission assembly Negative battery cable
   
3. Start the engine and check for leaks.

1. Before servicing the vehicle, refer to the Precautions Section.
2. Drain the engine oil.
3. Drain the coolant.
4. Remove or disconnect the following:
   
   Negative battery cable Crankshaft balancer Drive belt tensioner Power steering pump and lines. Do not disconnect the lines from the pump Thermostat bypass pipe from the front cover Radiator outlet hose from the water pump Water pump Upper and lower Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor wire harness bracket from the front cover CKP sensor from the front cover Front cover and gasket
   
   
   Fig. Crankshaft timing mark locations
   
5. Rotate the crankshaft until the timing marks are aligned in the following locations:
   
   Camshaft alignment pin (1) Timing chain damper (2) to the crankshaft sprocket (3) Crankshaft key (4) Timing chain damper (5) to the camshaft sprocket locator hole (6)
   
6. Remove or disconnect the following:
   
   Camshaft sprocket bolt Timing chain, timing chain sprockets and damper Front oil seal
   
   
   Fig. Exploded view of the timing chain assembly
   

1. Install or connect the following:
   
   New front oil seal by making certain the seal is fully seated Timing chain damper. Torque the bolts to 15 ft. lbs. (21 Nm). Timing chain to the camshaft sprocket Crankshaft sprocket Timing chain to the crankshaft sprocket by making certain the chain is fully seated
   
2. Align the crankshaft timing mark to the bottom mark on the damper.
3. Align the timing mark on the camshaft gear center line of the locator hole with the timing mark on the top of the damper.
4. Align the dowel in the camshaft with the dowel hole in the camshaft sprocket.
5. Install or connect the following:
   
   Camshaft sprocket bolt. Torque the bolt to 103 ft. lbs. (140 Nm).
   
6. Apply a 0.20 inch (5mm) bead of sealer to both sides of the lower tabs of the engine front cover gasket.
   
   Front cover. Torque the 5 small bolts to 15 ft. lbs. (21 Nm), the 3 large bolts to 41 ft. lbs. (55 Nm) and the 2 remaining bolts to 35 ft. lbs. (47 Nm). Water pump to the front cover. Torque the bolts to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). Water pump pulley. Torque the bolt to 18 ft. lbs. (25 Nm). CKP sensor to the front cover Upper/lower CKP wire harness brackets to the front cover Radiator outlet hose to the water pump Thermostat bypass pipe to the front cover Power steering pump and lines Drive belt tensioner Crankshaft balancer Negative battery cable
   
7. Fill the engine with oil.
8. Fill the coolant system.

Thanks for the great description. It's 70 degrees out today so figured today was a good time to take care off the other crap. I pulled the tranny out in the drive so I had more room in the garage. I can't wait until we purchase some land so I can build me a nice garage!

Good old Simple Green. We used the heck out of that stuff in the Marine Corps. Good stuff.

Can I get away with installing the rear main seal without the special tool as long as I'm careful that it lines up okay?

I'm about 99% sure that the timing cover gasket is the main cause of the seeping oil. It's wet all along the outside of it. I wish I would've replaced it when I did the intake.

Degreaser favs for finding a leak I've had luck with specific to just what and where not mentioned yet,
* Westley's Bleche-Wite by brand. Not sure what else but can harm asphalt.
* Lanolin like the 'agent orange' type hand cleaners.
* No surprise but WD-40 (mostly fish oil) depending on where. So far will not harm painted things.

Other more serious totally nasty XXX
* Marine Hull cleaner - brush (nylon brush only) on and anything organic or rust will smoke! Keep that crap away from anything but specific items! I think it's oxalic acid or sulfuric acid.
* Some Brake-Kleen type products are mostly lacquer thinner. Watch out for paint again and rubber items.
* XXXX and AYOR - Marker's Mark! Call hazmat squad to be on standbyhttp://www.autoacsystems.net/phpBB2/images/smiles/panic.gif !

New ordinary gaskets: Like Felpro products. If paperish for oil sealing will use black Permatex gasket maker in the finest smear (no build up) and allow to fully dry..........

T

What's the trick to getting the old paper gasket off in such a tight space? It is really stuck on there. Can I spray that gasket remover?

Tom, are you saying to smear the rtv, let it dry, and then put the gasket on top or smear the rtv on both sides of the gasket, let it dry, and then install?

Have to take the wife out for the evening so will be back at it tomorrow.

I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here.

What i do is I use a thin spray adhesive on the surface of the new part and cement the gasket to it and then right before installing it, I apply a coat of RTV too the engine side. That way that gasket stays firmly in place on the part and will not move during installation and if ever removed again, the setup will make the gasket remain on the removed part and make clean up easier. The RTV will also fill any pitting you may have on the block. If the cover has any pitting, it should be replaced and it likely will have.

Thanks for the advice HT. I didn't notice any pitting on the timing cover so I think I'm okay to reuse it.

Another question. Is the crankshaft seal on the timing cover or is there another seal behind the crankshaft sprocket?

No, that is all oil lubricated behind the cover. Seal is in the cover.

Great....thanks HT!

When I'm cleaning up the surface on the engine am I okay to spray the gasket remover and parts cleaner without worrying about it getting into any certain spots? I'm going to flush the cooling system when finished but didn't know about the engine. Will spraying it hurt anything if it does get into any spots it shouldn't be?

Not at long as you change the oil when you're finished, You would be better using a scraper instead.

Scraper it is.


I'm pretty sure this will be the last minivan we will own. I'm not a big fan of working on them. I like how alldata says, "Remove the power steering pump with lines. Move the power steering pump to the side'" Yeah right, where the hell is the room to move it to the side? I just pretty much left it in place and wiggled the timing cover off. But hey, I've done enough work on this thing to where I'm getting the hang of working on it. It has been a good vehicle though. I didn't have to touch anything, besides the condenser and compressor, until we hit 140k. I can live with that.

Thanks again for the help HT. Always appreciated.

The pump is pretty easy to remove. There are 3 10mm bolts that can be access through the hole in the pulley and then the pump will slide right out of the bracket with pulley and all.

I already got it off. I was just saying how the manual says to move it to the side but there's hardly any room to move it to the side. There's hardly any room at all in a minivan engine compartment.

Is Ultra Grey okay to use? I can't seem to find my black. I know I have some somewhere though so will find it if need be.

I ended up finding the leak I first posted about. When I first started pulling the tranny I could've sworn it was oil. Since I flushed the power steering system I can now tell that it's power steering fluid. I was able to climb underneath and see that it's coming from the hard line where it connects to the pump. So, it's either the fitting on the line or on the pump. I shouldn't have to remove anything to replace that line so might try that first. If I replace the other line I'll probably have to pull the alternator and pump. I wasn't able to install the power steering pump without removing the bracket where you lift the engine. I tried for quite awhile but couldn't drop it in place. If we're going to keep the van I should probably just replace the pump and both lines while I'm at it. The other line just has a 6" rubber hose and then the hard line so I might be able to just replace the hose section. Should I first try the one line or go ahead and replace both lines and the pump? The pump works fine the fitting just might be leaking.

One more question. I noticed you can get a power steering pump seal kit. Looks like it comes with O-rings. What are the chances I could just replace the O-rings? Does the hard line have an o-ring or is it flared? I think if I could just take care of the leak where the line goes into the fitting it would be fine.

Hmmm? Is PS leaking at connections, lines or not so sure yet? Is this running yet to clean and really see the leak? PS lines: Pressure and return. Pressure is serious pressure + return rather passive quality hose and clamps.

Seal kit? If you mean tank to pump fine and if leaking do that. Pumps themselves aren't so serviceable but that hasn't stopped you yet. So far none so costly all done to make it worth it to me anyway.

Dealing with one now (Ford product) that of course now just refuses to show itself at all, all OE 24+ years old and looks like about 2 months old new junk in the trunk waiting probably worse than the old OE stuff.

Just watch out for plain hose with clamps what kind of clamps. Near impossible to find are the full circle clamps. The spring worm (call those what you will) do not apply even pressure unless one whole loop isn't cut for the screw. I think I have the last two of those. Just keep an eye on what you end up using if you go there. Pressure whole lines aren't that expensive IMO so far but this may have a fitting in the line for sensing pressure for a sensor to seal too. Should come with what you need for seals.

PS stuff is important as no fluid and pump failure can mess up a ton of junk and render you a pedestrian if it can't hold a belt on the system,

T

Thanks Tom. I'm pretty sure the leak was just from the o-ring on the fitting that connects to the pump. It was junk. I was able to completely disassemble the pump and replace all seals and O-rings. The kit came with the shaft seal, fitting o-ring, rear cover o-ring, and reservoir o-ring. I think that's pretty much all the O-rings and the only seal. I didn't see any others and I had it completely torn down. Vanes and all. Since I ordered new lines I went ahead and replaced them too. No since tearing back into it for $80. Those lines weren't much fun. It would've been much easier with the tranny out. If I would've had it on a lift they would've been a piece of cake. It was just hard getting my arm up to screw the fitting into the rack.

It's all pretty much operational. Well, I hope so. I started it up the other day to top off fluids and all but haven't put it into gear yet. I still have to let it warm up, shift through all the gears, and top of the tranny. I've been putting off throwing it into gear until I have too. I'm too darn nervous! Tomorrow is the day though.

Oh but you thought you had the last two worm clamps. Remember that shadow you saw outside your window the other night out of the corner of your eye? You weren't seeing things.

Quote ">>Oh but you thought you had the last two worm clamps. Remember that shadow you saw outside your window the other night out of the corner of your eye? You weren't seeing things."

LMAO - You wouldn't recognize them at a glance. I'll beat it up a bit with hose clamps.......

Typical............

Seems that's all even high end parts stores will give you either stainless or not. Stainless should be marked "SS" on housing for the clamp. That type shown allows the cuts for the screw to contact the hose and NOT very good but cool because you can open those and use two end to end for a larger clamp BUT they do NOT apply even pressure. Those if only choice use two in opposite directions and still flare a metal line if you are making a piece.

Two side by side showing a difference.............

One on left is the ones I can't find anywhere. See that no cut gear touches hose such that it is "full circle" pressure. Have gone to every known hardware and automotive place known and can't find the ones on the left in that pic. Easy to use and stays tight. There's some rule if something is designed to work you are not allowed to sell it!

Others that are good and used commonly............

That is OE for many applications. Locally I can only find those at a Benzo, Rolls and Bentley dealer! Mostly for PS and fuel line use OE. Can be snugged up and do apply full circle pressure. If 'SS' (magnet wont pick them up) I'll use those in place of even some OE junk meant for one time use.

One time use type.............

At least it is as close to full circle for junk out there. Advantage is fast, dirt cheap, set pinch tool so tightness factor is pre-set. No brains involved for mass production which is now key.

Self adjusting now in common use for cooling system mostly, an assortment shown...........

This idea at least as a hose shrinks the clamp continues to hold same contact pressure. One in center right works best IMO but can require special tool that costs more than anyone would want to spend to use them quickly in odd locations.

Tool look like this...........

Generic shown.

This crap matters and can wreck your whole job later long after it worked the cheap junk clamps can leak, slip, rust out, strip out, cause marital problems (LOL) and will by Murphy's Law be in the hardest place to do anything about it requiring 10 hours time taking other things out of the way to fix what could have been right the first time - will fail at the worst possible time causing the most damage!

The best new PS hose I have uses the one time crimp clamp and I'm not pleased. That exact case it is located where it can be swapped out fast and easy for a better one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is or can be nasty critical. My take is to make vehicles fast and furious at any location by unskilled labor with the least expensive materials you can get away with rules the market.

Laugh - I feel better now - Tom

I'm not sure but i think it has a slower drying time.

I found my black.

Last question...... hopefully. This is the first timing cover I've done so just want to make sure I cover all bases. I don't like doing things twice just because I didn't ask someone who knows. Do I need to use any kind of sealant on the bolts or will the gaskets take care of them?

It probably would hurt to put some on the 4 bolts around the water port but the others won't matter. Sometimes those threads go through to the water jacket.

Those bolts will be the real long ones, and I'm with HT about putting some silicone on them. He also raises a good point about using spray-tack to hold the gasket to the cover and silicone on the block side. If you do have pitting on the cover you add it to the float test pile for when we go fishing, and if not the gasket will stay on the cover should you have need to ever pull it again.

Gasket remover will loosen it up. Die grinder with a roloc disc gets at it pretty good on the block, but timing cover is aluminum so a very delicate touch is needed. I think Tom means you should rub a small film of RTV on the cover, place the gasket on it and allow it time to cure. Then rub a small film on the other side just before you bolt it up and let that sit a few hours before you fire it up.

You can install the rear main without the installer but you have to be very careful and have to fabricate your own puller. I made one for the front seal of an N14 at work out of pipe and flat stock. You need a piece of pipe that just barely fits over the crank. Cut off a piece and weld flat bar across one end of it. Drill two or more holes in that bar that match your crankshaft bolt pattern. Once you get the seal onto the crank and lined up, place your installer over the crank and use the crank bolts to pull the tool into the seal. Absolute diligence must be exercised to make sure it is going in straight. Also realize that a crude homemade tool will not have a positive stop, so you must know exactly how deep to install this.

With both the front and rear main seal, be sure to look very closely at the crank mating surface. Strange as it is, that rubber seal lip can and will cut into your hardened steel crank and if you have damage you will need a speedi-sleeve seal setup or this will never seal up properly.

RTV? Conjures the question which one as by brand "Permatex" there are many in assorted colors. Plain black (other colors seen out there) marked gasket maker vs the "adhesive sealant" easily mistaken.

What I mean is for paper or some other assorted gaskets anywhere just to color the new gasket with the stuff which is NOT necessary by the book at all but noted that the paper itself can and will leak thru coolants, oils just a bit then quit. Maybe just me but I like to pressure up a cooling system with tester while just air is inside and spray some soapy water to verify the seal is good. Yup, even properly done with just air you get that shaving cream like it's leaking but wont with the coolant later. Doesn't matter if timing cover stuff, intakes that run coolant or what I like to know it's OK before it is all back together.

Other is once a gasket of those types has that junk on it it will never be a nightmare to deal with again and just peel off. Before electricity old pharts would use grease. Still would but silicone - pure stuff. Hard to find but use it in/on many assorted things never to be soldered or painted later. Threaded studs & bolts. This anal behavior is for the next possible chance you are there again it will behave like it should have been made to begin with but just can't be. You get one shot when there to make it last,

Tom

Sounds good. Off to CARQUEST. Thanks DS.

Yep, that is the timing cover. If it appears the timing cover is leaking, it is a lot easier to deal with when the oil pan is off. If you do end up removing the cover, it is a good idea to replace the timing chain and components. If you can overhaul a transmission, rebuilding an engine is cakewalk.

The coolant reservoir is basically an expansion/reserve tank. If no tank leaks present, and you are topping it off every 2 weeks, somewhere the coolant is leaking or is getting burned. You may want to pressure test the system to verify there are no leaks. Really check the "weep hole" on the underside of the water pump for any signs of coolant or staining. If all checks out ok, you may have an intake or a cylinder head leaking coolant internally.

Steve

The flat rate time for the cover only is 4 hours. The time for the chain only is also 4 hours. If you are changing both there would be about an hour extra so I would say about 5 hours total. I really don't think the oil pan as to come off. The timing gasket set should come with a partial piece of the pan gasket if necessary.

As HT confirmed oil pan doesn't come off you clean off if OE or remove old rubber section if there now. 4 extra hours doesn't add up for timing chain as that suggests you aren't already right there looking right at it then pretty easy and fast.
* Hard part - pins in blocks or stubs line up covers to block and must line up by pushing down on cover against the new bottom gasket. If you tightened it up not in line it would wreck the new cover!


T

I didn't say it was 4 hours extra. I said it was 4 hours for either operation but doing both should be about 5 hours. That would be the 4 hours for the chain replacement plus an extra hour for swapping the water pump and any other external items to a new cover.

Understand. Was and think at the age and somewhat unknown miles that the timing cover must have already been off and worried more what a pest lining up those pegs (there's a name for those?) and squish it on hard, worked maybe now a failure from older work.
Water pumps later were either aluminum or cast iron either timely for removing gaskets or gouging up timing covers too much.
I think Ford was smoking something with the 80 - about 87 5.0 engines with front of engine parts including A/C, water pumps and all the brackets that make it all fit for really no reason I can think of as they were total dogs, super poor power new but wouldn't say horrible for lasting and putting up with abuse which was simply using A/C for some of those!


T

One thing to remember here is the issue is going pitting in the aluminum housing so just replacing the gasket isn't going to do the trick. You are likely going to need a new manifold which may not be the easiest thing to find.

I've seen a lot of these through the years. The cover pits and corrodes at the water ports and will have to be replaced.

I'm just curious now as this almost can't happen to any I've known?
Pic - Front of engine all cast iron............
/
/
The cover shown on the engine.............
/
No intake involves and missing in that pic.


Where am I going wrong? One issue is absolutely none of these are around, early ones pawned off as rentals only a model or two earlier than 82 and were not the same TMK at all some with a "VV" carb that didn't work out so well,


T

The two round circles in the middle picture are water ports to the water pump and the coolant corrodes the sealing .surface away. I'm sure that is what is leaking on his. The manifold is aluminum.

I give as I can't know. None of these lasted long enough plain body/frame issues for engines to be the problem just accessories on them.
Pitted anything would really worry me and true gasket isn't going to fix that and not sure faking it with sealers would last for crap either.
Have to leave this with info here now to the OP's observations when there and if there where else that you don't know?
I've also never needed a new timing cover for any and think if it did something broke over some other work?
Yet another I just can't know so OP do pay attention,


T

? I should know but there still could be two different types. I suggest match at a brick and mortar outlet with VIN#, cover, pump and gasket set (hoses and more as you wish.) The OE oil pan shouldn't need to come out or off unless you need to. New gasket will be a partial rubber one for front and dabs of silicone gasket sealer at ends. Think hard if this is worth a dang to do timing chain (cheap and easy while there) too. You'll know miles are under 200K if cam gear you'll see anyway has nylon teeth, replacement will not or don't get that type again. The OE nylon almost certainly would not make 300K or the age of it. If in pieces now when there get as much out as you can out of the pan,


T