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If someone can read that run on garbage more power to them - I can't,

AMC = AlMost Complete so what did you expect?

T

I simplified it for the simple of mind.

Just wanted to know if the ECU was powering up or not.

You stated you were checking for power at the injector, but didn't see any power. Did you check it without removing the injector connector?

I believe on this set up when the ASD relay is energized by the ECU power is sent to the injectors on the dark green/orange wires of the injectors and the ignition coil pack. The ASD relay is powered on for a couple of seconds when the ignition is first turned on and stays on when the ECU is detecting crank/cam sensor signals.

If you don't have power to the injectors or coil pack, you need to see if the ASD relay is being energized by the ECU and power is getting to the injectors and coil pack. If the relay is being energized by the ECU when you first turn the ignition on for a few seconds, you need to check the outputs of the cam and crank sensors while cranking the engine. The cam and crank sensors are both hall effect and can be checked with a lab scope.

Ok, updates for that last post:
After properly checking for power on the fuel injectors, I found it. I can also hear them making a normal working sounding sound. I also think that they are spraying fuel fine, because after turning the ignition on and off several times, one of the cylinders smell fairly strongly of fuel. Maybe the reason that the spark plugs aren't wet is because the injectors aren't spraying on them, or because compression is causing evaporation. Whatever the case, I THINK the fuel delivery system is delivering fuel.

I also noticed that when the engine was being started, that the voltage on the fuel injector seemed to be working as I would assume is normal (my multimeter give a bit laggy voltage reading, but it was quickly jumping and falling.) Also the ASD relay seemed to click normally when the ignition was first turned on.

So right now I think the lack of spark is the problem, but I could easily be wrong.
What next? I don't know where the cam or crank sensors are located at. A picture would be great, or detailed text would work. I don't have a "lab scope", but I do have a oscilloscope that sounds like it performs a similar function.

Updates:
After a ton of looking on the internet and looking at the engine, I found the crank shaft position sensor. I think it's broken. With my mutlimeter on ground and signal of the sensor, the voltage was like .03V and went unaffected by a magnet. Anouther thing I found interesting, the voltage supply for the sensor was at 8.81V. Isn't it supposed to be either very near to 5v or 8v? 8.81V is almost a whole extra volt. Is the ECU having voltage control issues?

So shall I replace the crank shaft position sensor and see what happens?

The power supply voltage to the sensor does state 5 volts, but it could be wrong. I've seen 5,8,10, and 12 used to power those hall effects. If you don't see a digital signal coming from it while cranking the engine, and you have good power and ground to the sensor, it is possible it is the culprit.

I've used a soldering iron...the ones with the trigger to see if the sensor would activate. Sometimes using that is inconclusive though. I've seen a bad sensor trigger from the electromagnet field from the solder gun, but wouldn't trigger when the interrupter passed through it.

if you have a scope that is the ideal tool to use to check it. Connect your probe to the signal circuit and look for a digital signal while cranking the engine.

Ok, I did buy a new crank sensor, but when I got home it was pouring rain, I installed it anyways, but it didn't start when I tried it. Sure I couldn't even hear the engine over the rain (I could feel it), but it didn't start instantly. I'll work on it some more when it's not pouring rain.

With the new one installed there is still no spark. What should I try next?

I finally found some more time to work on the car. I was planning on hooking up the oscilloscope to the crank sensor output, but as I was going for the wire, I noticed something I had previously missed; the coil wasn't plugged in. Apparently, when I was installing the crank sensor In the pouring rain I had missed that little detail. After being plugged in, started up just fine, apart from some bad smelling smoke. So the problem was the crank sensor. I have a few more questions though. I noticed that the sensor was getting 8.83V, and I heard It was supposed to get 5v. Is this possibly the cause of the last sensor breaking? Should I be concerned that the new crank sensor is going to break because of the excess voltage?

Also, my dad said that the car has a head gasket issue. The issues mostly entails a bit of oil leaking into the cylinders, but mostly just 1 of the cylinders. He said that he planned on going the avoid repair route, and instead just top of the oil and frequently replace the spark plugs more frequently than normal. I think he has been doing this for several years. What do you guys think? Is the head gasket worth replacing? Would someone like me, who likes building robots and electric go carts, but that fixing this car was the first thing I've fixed on a combustion engine, be able to do a repair like that? Or is the repair even worth the time?

I seriously doubt that is a head gasket causing the oil consumption. How did he come up with that conclusion?

I made the oil consumption sound worse then it is. He just has to occasionally check and top off the oil. I don't know where he came up with that conclusion, but I'm guessing a mechanic told it to him because I don't know who else would.

And I'll check the crank sensor voltage again.

The crank sensor running voltage is about 8.24V.

I haven't taken the vehicle for a drive yet, because it desperately needs an oil change and some coolant. After running for about 5 minutes at idle, the coolant tempature hit 90C (measured with OBDII), and the dripping wet radiator started "smoking" (I think it was actually steam) where the coolant comes into it, so i turned it off.

Do you think that running voltage will give future issues? And do you think a head gasket replacement is worth the effort, or even do-able by me?

Again, your oil consumption is not caused by a bad head gasket. There is some other reason like rings or valve seals. I don't know how anyone could have come to the conclusion the head gasket caused that. There is no test that could confirm or indicate that unless he physically sees oil leaking externally from the head gasket.

Ok I just talked to him about it. He says he came to the conclusion because oil was leaking into the cylinder, and he says the only possible cause is the head gasket. Wikipedia seems to support that the head gasket can cause oil to leak into the engine:
Its purpose is to seal the cylinders to ensure maximum compression and avoid leakage of coolant or engine oil into the cylinders
Anyways, you guys are the experts. I know there is oil getting into the cylinder, because when I replaced the spark plug, the tube that goes down to it had a decent amount of oil (presumably worked into in on the countless attempts to start the engine in which it would not start.) So what do you think is the cause of the oil leaking into the cylinder is?

Ok I just talked to him about it. He says he came to the conclusion because oil was leaking into the cylinder, and he says the only possible cause is the head gasket. Wikipedia seems to support that the head gasket can cause oil to leak into the engine:
Its purpose is to seal the cylinders to ensure maximum compression and avoid leakage of coolant or engine oil into the cylinders
Anyways, you guys are the experts. I know there is oil getting into the cylinder, because when I replaced the spark plug, the tube that goes down to it had a decent amount of oil (presumably worked into in on the countless attempts to start the engine in which it would not start.) So what do you think is the cause of the oil leaking into the cylinder is?



You have no idea how stupid that whole statement was.

THE VALVE COVER IS LEAKING!!!

Ok fine that was stupid. I know I dint know much about engines. What is the difficulty of repair of a valve cover?

The intake has to come off on this one Nick.

Thats right, 3.5 engine. Yeah, I'd let a shop do that one.

Well I don't think the repair is worth the time.

Anyways, Thank You all for your great help. I've been working on getting the vehicle to run well. I did get it 0-60 in 10 seconds, so there is room for improvement there.

I still have a few issues, most notably the blinkers are broken. That is enough of a different subject to start a new thread, so I did. And any future question I have about this vehicle will be posted there as well.
http://autoforums.carjunky.com/Automotive_Repair_C1/Electrical_and_Wiring_F6/gforum.cgi?post=148438;t=search_engine#148438

Again, Thank You!

Would replacing the valve cover benefit anything except the oil being burned? Like would it run better or get better fuel economy?

No, not at all. It's to stop the oil leak only, although the oil leaking into the spark plug hole will damage the rubber plug wire..

I have a few more questions though. I noticed that the sensor was getting 8.83V, and I heard It was supposed to get 5v. Is this possibly the cause of the last sensor breaking? Should I be concerned that the new crank sensor is going to break because of the excess voltage?

Really don't think that 8.83V will fry the crank sensor. Have you checked the supply voltage to it now that it is running? The crank sensor and the cam sensor share the same power circuit, so you can check the supply voltage at the cam sensor also. Make sure that your meter has at least 10M ohms of impedance when checking automotive circuits.

Have you checked the Timing Belt?

Before you jump thru too many hoops,
Take one of the timing covers loose at the top and peek in there while someone tries to start the car,
See if the cams are turning?

The engine spins fine when you try to start it, nothing.
All i'm saying is since WE here can't hear how the engine sounds it may be the timing belt
Easy enough to check before he jumps thru too many hoops

Your right DJ, he should first check to make sure the timing belt is ok and the cams and crank are in synch. I figured the OP knew how to check hall effects and has an O scope, so I was hoping to make his job a little easier.

You can check it without removing the covers, by using a DSO and looking at the cam and crank sensor waveform patterns. I got access to a 3.5L CKP and CMP known good waveform, so you have a reference. But having no CKP activity makes that test useless.

If not, cover removal is your only option, unless you do a compression test, but as stated you should still have CKP activity if the belt came apart or you have some other mechanical timing related issue going on.

Even if the timing belt snapped, it should still generate a crank signal though.

Watch this video on how to test a crank sensor( the prefered method is with an O scope):

Even if the timing belt snapped, it should still generate a crank signal though.


I don't think it's been determined that it isn't generating a crank signal.

Check engine light come on when you turn the key on? Have you checked for trouble codes stored in the ECU?

I thought it was fairly well written, I mean would you rather I didn't include details? And I guess I didn't use very good terminology either...

When the key is turned the check engine light turns on. When my obd2 reader was plugged in it was blinking, not sure if it does that when it's not plugged in. As I said the only error code stored on the system was related to exhaust, which is probably because it has no catalac converter, and completely unrelated to the fact it won't start.