Shop Discount Cold Air Intakes

Maybe in the old days with a carb and no 0/2 sensors but even then the carb jetting would have to be altered accordingly.

GTS: Quote: ">>As for the atomization thing. The cooling effect, if their is any at all, would be negligible or else radiators and inter coolers would have no purpose on cars. Also atomization, or the act of creating mist,"

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If the fuel isn't totally a vapor you are flooding out. Liquid gasoline is of no use for combustion. Yes - both carbs and FI make a mist first so it can evaporate quickly which is must. There's no power in liquid gas for an engine. It does NOT run on liquid mist droplets or would be blowing black smoke and have almost no power. That's why intake manifolds get HEAT to help speed up atomization or vaporization. Anything that evaporates makes cold (properly said - takes away heat) and on a hot humid day you can ice up an intake manifold.

Your body is evaporating liquid which takes away heat which is why we sweat. On a humid day it doesn't evaporate as fast so you feel hotter because you are.

This is the "Change of State" (not politics - science) -- Example - water at 32F can be either a liquid or a solid - imagine that? It takes two calories of engergy to change it either way and it's the same temp!

Understand that please,

T

Rule of thumb from my racing days. Cold air will hold more fuel than warm air. That's why we used to pack our fuel lines and intake manifold with ice before a run. The problem is that modern cars have computers that will over ride all that.

True and False: Cold air is naturally more dense so IF you can have fuel in vapor form in colder air it absolutely would have more ability. Computer in car can only maximize what it has available, not change it,

T

That's not what I'm saying. Cold air vs warm air can carry more fuel while still in vapor form. When I was racing my 340 I dropped a whole 1/2 second by simply moving the air intake from inside the engine compartment to outside where it grabbed cold outside air instead of heated engine compartment air. I could also grab a couple more tenths by packing the intake manifold in ice while getting ready and in staging. We used "cool can" that were insulated cans with the fuel line coiled inside that we filled with ice.

On the computer car though, the sensors will pick up on the extra fuel and lean out the pulse width to compensate for that.

OK - well noticed that here and you've been here (cold country) cars have more HP in cold weather in general. My point was just that no matter what it must be a vapor (atomized) or it's a waste.

Noted with later engines vs all cast iron is that it takes no time for intake to be of a reasonable temp. Iron intakes used to "re-condense" vapor back to liquid such that a "choke" was used to cover that effect.

All of this gets solved by turbo and supercharging via compressing the air to be denser = more of it per sq ft than warm air big time depending on how much temp.

What also messes up the show is we are no longer buying pure octane (8th chain of carbon) in gasoline. What we get is so watered down (not real water) with junk which is just filler the potential is lost there too - in any engine.

That's a mess of a mix of science for what works best and world politics. Gasoline where I am suks. One gal should weigh about 6.8 lbs and can be 10% less! Rip off!

T

I once workded a few years at a high performance custom 4x4 and rod shop. Once we did a performanmce workover on a late model k1500 4x4 . A ecm reprogramer ,. 3 " dual exhaust turbo flow mufflers ,cats stayed on. A cold air intake was installed along with a water mist injection system . With the programer we could change timing , shift points and fuel mixture ratio . We could also recalibrate the speedo for different tire sizes and gear ratios . The shop had a full chassis dyno and emmission tester and we tested each step . Everything made some improvement but it was the 'Package " that made it work .Passed 4 gas test. Bill was couple grand . So in my experiance a cold air will work ,, in FLA weather anyway. Not so much by itself but part of a bigger picture. IMO

You know something RT, I like your input here. A lot of these things this is just my opinion.... I understand how most of these systems operate (to a small degree), I see what claims the they are saying their product does, do the math and it just doesn't add up. Granted I have never put these to the test simply because I don't have a dyno or the time.

I see their "numbers" but to me that's like the old accounting joke. A firm has narrowed the field 3. The 1st guys walking into the board room & on the board is 2+2=. They say finish the problem. He says 4. They say thank you we don't need you. Same for the 2nd guy. The 3rd guys walks in, they say finish the problem, he walks over shuts the door & says, what would you like it to equal???
Some of their claims sound a bit far fetch.

One thing I did see was one older cars pre computer. A lot of these things would have a positive effect but this was just due to it being a fixed system with a pre existing problem the part was countering. The one thing I do see on a regular basis and know it's just not the case any more is air filters. I think we all know what a partially plugged filter can do to an engine with a carb & no computer controls. Manufacturers would stress changing filter for performance and fuel economy and were absolutely right. Now with MAF systems and computer controls there has been a debate on what effect a partially clogged filter will have on a system. One side is old school and the other is no effect. What I see is no effect, I routinely see filters with dirt falling out of them when barely picked up, hit on the ground is huge cloud of dust. The cars have no codes, are in fuel control run and drive fine, they are just in for routine maintenance (and yes when it was slow and I had the time I would hook my Modis up check for codes, pending codes, look at a data stream and fuel trims). From what I see in my area, partially clogged filters has no effect on performance or fuel control, now if you let one get bad enough to block air flow is another thing but that is different than partially clogged ones that would effect pre OBD I carb engines...

I remember when Spilt fires where the big rage. At the time I use to work part time at a parts store. Some guys swore by these, it was like the miracle cure for their cars, then again, old chevys. Just so we would push them more the manager gave us all a set and I have to admit I was pretty curious after hearing all the talk but no way was gonna pay $6 a plug. I put them into my 94 Mits p/u with 90k on the clock and didn't notice anything performance wise or fuel but then again it was already running decent and this was by no means a scientific test.

I kind of like getting some independent info on these systems. This is a source I can trust and it sounds like the shop you worked at was doing it right. The one thing you guys did which I guarantee made the biggest difference was reprogamming. I'm pretty much a stock tech and haven't really got into the high pro side. My buddy has a 12 second Chevelle he runs down the 1/4 and is really into that. He has 95? Impala SS with an LT 350. He got one of those cheap reprogrammers for his model only.. No tests other than just driving the car around, you could actually feel a difference in power and shift points when he was changing the settings for fuel, timing and other points but of course then stoichio is out the window.....


K&Ns, split fires...I'm not buying it... Cold airs....I'll keep an open mind, I would be curious if you remember what the differences were, I know they would be small but any noticeable difference would mean something I suppose.....

HT , you have a point . It was not a certified gas analyzer and Florida has never had emmision testing . We even calibrated the unit once a month ourselves. It was used mainly as a sales tool . We would get a bsaseline reading before and as we did mods we would do a run and show the customer he was getting something for his money . Sidom , I cant rember the readings , I have trouble remembering my passwords. As for the copies I had kept . They were on that heat transfer type paper that came in a roll. About a year later I had a a folder of blank paper. One recent example I can give is my sons 03 Dodge diesel dually turbo'ed and innercooled. . He tried a friends reprogrammer made just for diesel's.I saw the results myself or I would not have belived it. They advertized increasing HP by a third and doubing the torque. With the unit in the power mode, the truck would do burnouts for as long as the pedal was on the floor. This is a four door dually we're talking about. My son wanted to put a cold air intake on ,admittantly for looks .We made note of his average mpg readout before and 100 miles ltr.THe truck gained 3 mpg (2.7 to be exact).When in the economy mode mpg went up 4mpg . Granted modifing a diesel intake should show something , after all , it's 16 gulps of air compressed to one every stroke. Next i'm gettting one of dem TORNADO things that turns your aircleaner into a supercharger.Right after I finish installing the ceramic magnets that line up your fuel molecules.

Next i'm gettting one of dem TORNADO things that turns your aircleaner into a supercharger
.....my personal favorite....

So in my experiance a cold air will work ,, in FLA weather anyway. Not so much by itself but part of a bigger picture. IMO

What about when used on an emissions certified PCM system?

It's all about advertising and packaging, nothing else. I could sell a new rotor for a Model A if I had advertising and packaging behind me.

To be honest I would be more worried about sucking up water into your cars engine if your CAI is located close to the ground. While your car is running and your engine is hot you shouldnt have any problems because the heat from the engine will keep everything dry. however when your engine cools down water could condense on top of (not really a problem) but also inside of the intake itself and freeze. if this happens you would get less airflow into your engine on start up and might wind up sucking a piece of ice into your engine as well. If you are going to mount an after market intake i would go with a SRI short ram intake. Itll be closer to your engine and further from the ground greatly decreasing the chances of getting water or ice into your engine.

As for the atomization thing. The cooling effect, if their is any at all, would be negligible or else radiators and intercoolers would have no purpose on cars. Also atomization, or the act of creating mist, is done so that the fuel is burned for thoroughly and efficiently it is not done to cool the engine.

Fuel "atomizes" and in just doing that get cold to make ice when it's hot so heat is necessary to add not take away! You don't want too much heat either as fuel would pre ignite.

Leave the engine the way it was designed. If some tricks worked it would be on it from new,

T

Save yourself some money and make your own custom cold air intake.

OK - went a bit nuts but it's a serious misleading as bad as any Sham-Wow infomercial.
People: Gas/fuel doesn't like COLD air dag nabbit! If too cold it would never atomize (evaporate) to be able to work in time. All sorts of efforts are to warm air not cool it up to putting strong electric heaters under throttle body or carbs then AND run total exhaust heat as well so evaporating fuel (gets cold just doing that like sweat on your skin) can even ice up so it's making itself cold anyway and has to be corrected or you'd just flood out.


No clue how these scams get out there and not pulled from the market place instantly?


True: Cold air has more density (heavier) than warm air - Google out what a hot air balloon is lifted by


The end all is if any of these tricks worked at all or had any benefit it would be designed into the engines to begin with.


This and a ton of bullcrap sells so they keep making it. If it floats your boat go for it but don't complain when it's all worse than before you messed with it,


T

Thanks for all the help guys..... Dont really need your guys opinions on them i really didnt ask. You guys seemed to think i did but you all maged not to answer my question and insted just go on a rant about them. This was a waste of time IMO.....looks like I'll have to take this to a better forum.

No problem, We won't miss you.

Its funny because on your quote it says that you help answer questions but you didnt do jack shit and managed just to bag on me. Nice way to welcome new member on the forum. This is extremely dissapointing

Good information Tom. Like they say, K&N filters are really only good for filtering out rocks...lol. GM came out with a TSB a while back concerning those filters and how they were causing MAF issues. GM stated they wouldn't honor damage done by using those filters. K and N went bananas over that one.

SERVICE - ALL BUICK, CADILLAC, CHEVROLET, GMC TRUCK, ISUZU, OLDSMOBILE, PONTIAC AND HUMMER DEALERS


Subject: A/T Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or SES Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter -- 2004 and Prior Cars and Lt Duty Trucks and 2003-2004 HUMMER H2
Message #: VSS20040056

Corporate Bulletin Number 04-07-30-013 will be available in SI on March 18, 2004.

Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES)
Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter

Models: 2004 and All Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
2003-2004 HUMMER H2

DO THIS
First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air filter

DON'T DO THIS
DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter.

The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in:

1. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On

2. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s)

3. Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range

The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur.

When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern.

Transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items.



Have you attempted to contact the manufacture to see if that would fit on your truck? As for passing emissions as long as it doesn't disturb how the air flows through the MAF sensor, you should be alright. To confirm, you should check the laws in your state concerning that.

This really is an automotive repair website dealing with factory manufacture designed vehicles and systems and how to troubleshoot and repair those systems. When you start getting into the realm of modifications and changes to the manufacture's intended design, you may not get good answers.

One good suggestion is to keep the old air intake ducting system just in case you run into issues or you want to sell the vehicle later.

This guy is just sucked in by all the hype nonsense and bogus claims.

He's spouted off long enough. Time to close this.

Sorry for the harsh approach to what really should be a no brainer and no offence - the advertising is convincing with stuff but real results are so disappointing and costly to buy then don't work and costly to put back to what works!


K&N actually has a competitor for this market that's worse! Look up the Uban lore and myths of assorted products. Some you'll find great reviews but miss fine print that it isn't really tested and don't discuss it can also damage things for using them! Guess the budget for something is better spent not telling you that up front.


Makes this and other magic-in-a-can products a strong seller for the unwary. It's my/our fault to some degree that it's so clearly corrupted to sell this junk it gets taken out on the buyer who trusts the claims.
Graphs probably wont show below and I wont go looking for ones that will but if you really look into results of products of many assorted things never mind a vehicle that took mega thousands of hours to make and design as best as possible or loses a sale of a vehicle when new to another. It's suicide for a company to have an unhappy new vehicle buyer then the icing on the cake is nobody really want them used so really a disaster.


On just this air intake search I just did came up with OE air filter results done by real PPM of catching dirt and the CFM impact of air flowing thru filters and what loss would be expected at they were part dirty vs another. BTW in my hunt AC Delco came out on top of most testing! OE replacement stuff no alterations just quality of the product.


Changing to cold air just is beyond thinking it thru IMO and experience. Used to back when turn a round lid to an air filter upside down and get a neat carb/air intake roar with a load that did nothing but make noise and trash the filter fast but cost nothing and just put it back on properly was all you had to do so didn't do much harm short of getting a dirty air filter sooner and defeat WARM AIR pick up for cold starts and engine's initial time before whole engine warmed up and ran it's best. Do that stupid trick in the dead of Winter you would have real problems.


End all is the change you seek for whatever claimed benefit doesn't work and costs to do it then undo it when you find out. We really (or I was) were trying to warn you of a known failed idea not pick on you at all and did come out bit harsh. Sorry for that.


Try it if you want to find out for yourself. Measure before and after real changes yourself and then if you complain to this company bet you wont even get your money back!


Good luck. We really are all volunteering time and years of experience for that good no other motivation at this site,


Tom
Graph if it shows or search it out...........

Accumulative Gain:
“Accumulative Gain” is the total amount of dirt that passed through the filter during the test.

They even advertise!

With honesty!


T

IMO all that is junk you'll be removing later - don't even if it still runs well enough for an inspection it's of no use at all just costly,


T