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Vemo
1990 Cadillac Brougham Ignition Coil 8 Cyl 5.7L Vemo

P311-4BF2198    W0133-1682222  New

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1990 - Cadillac Brougham V 8 Cyl 5.7L 350 -
Delphi
1990 Cadillac Brougham Distributor Cap 8 Cyl 5.7L Delphi - Original Equipment

P311-37A7836    W0133-1929948  New

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1990 - Cadillac Brougham V 8 Cyl 5.7L 350 -
Delphi
1990 Cadillac Brougham Ignition Control Module 8 Cyl 5.0L Delphi

P311-2C05656    W0133-1929950  New

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1990 - Cadillac Brougham V 8 Cyl 5.0L 307 -
SKF
1992 Cadillac Brougham Wheel Seal SKF

P311-4272297    W0133-1846211  New

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SKF Wheel Seal
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1992 - Cadillac Brougham
Mahle
1990 Cadillac Brougham Distributor Mounting Gasket 8 Cyl 5.7L Mahle

P311-445199D    W0133-1864235  New

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Mahle Distributor Mounting Gasket
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1990 - Cadillac Brougham V 8 Cyl 5.7L 350 -
ACDelco
1992 Cadillac Brougham Distributor Pole Piece Assembly ACDelco

P311-0532224    W0133-1865000  New

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ACDelco Distributor Pole Piece Assembly
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  • GM Original Equipment
  • (GM Calls this Part Pole Piece or Distributor Generator Signal)
Brand: ACDelco
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1992 - Cadillac Brougham
ACDelco
1992 Cadillac Brougham Electric Fuel Pump ACDelco

P311-3029944    W0133-1618923  New

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ACDelco Electric Fuel Pump
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1992 - Cadillac Brougham
Dorman
1992 Cadillac Brougham Throttle Position Sensor Dorman

P311-32170BD    W0133-1682855  New

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Dorman Throttle Position Sensor
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1992 - Cadillac Brougham
ACDelco
1992 Cadillac Brougham Radiator Cap ACDelco

P311-317EAAC    W0133-1681872  New

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ACDelco Radiator Cap
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1992 - Cadillac Brougham
ACDelco
1992 Cadillac Brougham Electric Fuel Pump ACDelco

P311-3029944    W0133-1618923  New

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ACDelco Electric Fuel Pump
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Vehicle
1992 - Cadillac Brougham

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Latest Cadillac Brougham Repair Guides & Installation Advice

CarJunky AutoAdvice

88 cadillac or 91 firebird

Showing 2 out of 2 Posts
Question From ddsraven on 88 cadillac or 91 firebird

hey all, i have a question. i got an 88 cadillac brougham. and i have a chance to trade it for a 91 firebird, it dosent run but has a 350, is this a good deal?

Response From DanD Top Rated Answer

I guess it all depends on what condition either car is in doesn’t it.
They both could only be worth their weight in scrap metal; if that’s the case then it’s a pretty even deal. Except that the Cadi would be heavier there fore making it worth a little more on a weigh scale. LOL
Sorry but we need a lot more information on both vehicles to even begin to answer your question.
Dan.

1981 El Camino hot soak/perculation/hard restart problem

Showing 2 out of 25 Posts | Show 23 Hidden Posts
Question From cadptsman on 1981 El Camino hot soak/perculation/hard restart problem

I have an '81 El Camino with 307,000 miles total, 170K on the current 350 crate engine. The thing runs great still, but I've been having a very annoying problem now for the last year or so. Whenever I shut it down after a drive, and I let it set for more than just a few minutes, it wants to start hard and then run really rough when it does restart.
I still have all of the original CCC equipment on it, and it all works just fine, it always has. The carb is an E4ME #17086005, (I know, it's not the original one, but it's identical. The original, #17081204 I still have.) Anyway, I have been through these carbs several times over the years just to freshen them up, keep them clean and replace wear items like the needle valve and gaskets. I've always had good luck with them with no complaints until about a year ago.

I'm suspecting it's the fuel, not really the carb(s), but I am at wits end trying to fix this.

I thought it was acting like it's either flooding, but it's not, or like it is starving for fuel with a weak fuel pump or maybe on the verge of a vapor lock because it surges after it restarts following the hot soak. Once it has ran for a couple of minutes (bucking and surging the whole time) it will level out and run just fine, like it just had to clear it's throat so to speak.

I have replaced the needle valve a couple of times thinking that was the problem. I did a pressure test against it with a full float bowl and they held back the pressure up to about 9 PSI, which is good. I also did a vacuum check on them as well, and they held a vacuum on the filter side for as long as I wanted to keep going. I stopped at 30 minutes.

I thought I might have had a weak fuel supply so I did a pressure test on my new mechanical fuel pump, it puts out 7 PSI, within spec there, and so the cam lobe is not worn either. I had replaced the fuel pump because the old one was leaking at the crimp seam between the two halves.

I cracked the fuel line fitting open at the carb after it has sat and hot soaked for 10 minutes to check for fuel and if it was still under pressure and it was, so that eliminated the vapor lock theory and the starving for fuel idea.

I had replaced the secondary well plugs with a new set from NAPA (2-83 I think is the part number) that have O-rings on them and a small stub to keep them in place when the throttle plate is installed when I did the last overhaul a few years ago.

I replaced the fuel filter several times as well, thinking I had a problem with fuel draining back to the tank because of the hard start issue, but that wasn't the problem either.

I've replaced the float, checked the weight of the new one against the one coming out and they were identical. This made no difference either.

I did several external inspections of the carb and surrounding surfaces looking for signs of leakage, nothing. I've pulled the carb off to look at the intake and to check for evidence of flooding and/or leakage on the bottom of the carburetor at the well plugs.

The TPS is working correctly, as well as the M/C solenoid, the only computer control/controlled devices on the carb. The choke is pulling open and adjusted as it should be.

I did finally see a small wet spot on the tip of the discharge nozzles as the engine was off and I had the air cleaner removed. Then it was percolating small droplets of fuel from the main discharge nozzles as it was idling (roughly) after a restart, and running slow enough not to even have a signal for it to begin pulling from the main circuit. I've reset the float level several times (lower each time by a 1/16th) in an effort to stop that, but it hasn't helped either, the last time being just yesterday. I also installed a new carb mounting gasket, but this time I added 3 more of the thinner insulating gaskets for a total thickness of 3/4 of an inch in an effort to keep the carb from getting so hot. (I know, not the most conventional method, but effective.)

I also checked the operation of the heat riser to be sure it wasn't sticking closed and running all the right bank exhaust under the carb. I had that happen to another car once and it really cooked the carb base gasket. This one was working fine.

The other variables are all correct, timing, valve adjustment, the M/C dwell in closed loop. I also checked the evaperative system for problems. The ported vacuum switch for that was working fine, and both of the control valves on the canister itself are working. The PCV valve is working fine. The EGR valve works as it is supposed to, and the EGR control solenoids are as well.

I had installed new valve seals at 300,000 miles, I change the oil every 5000 miles, and I've used 10W30 Mobil 1 since the engine was broke in. The inside of this engine is as clean as the day I installed it.

I'm not new to carburetors at all, I've worked on them for over 37 years now (since I was 16). I had worked as a mechanic for 8 years before I crossed the counter and began selling the parts instead of installing them, but I've never stopped working on my own vehicles.

But I've got to say that this has me stumped. The only thing I can think of that it might be, but that I have no control over is the fuel itself. I don't know what else to do to stop this perculation problem.

Has anyone else had problems with carbureted vehicles not running properly with today's gasoline?

HELP!!!!

Response From Hammer Time

Your car is an ''81. It was built to run on today's gas so that's not the issue.

You believe you have eliminated everything in the carb but I wouldn't overlook it. I still think you have some sort or carb leakdown or overfilling. I would try a different carb on there, even if only to rig it up temporarily just to see if the problem is gone. You can still have base plates leaking or power valve leaking. The problem has to be in the carb somewhere.

Response From cadptsman


Your car is an ''81. It was built to run on today's gas so that's not the issue.

You believe you have eliminated everything in the carb but I wouldn't overlook it. I still think you have some sort or carb leakdown or overfilling. I would try a different carb on there, even if only to rig it up temporarily just to see if the problem is gone. You can still have base plates leaking or power valve leaking. The problem has to be in the carb somewhere.

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Thanks for the prompt reply.

Yes, it's an '81, but engines and fuel delivery systems have come a long way since then, and so has the fuel make-up to accommodate them. I know that the formulations on current fuels is different than it was 31 years ago.
When I was still driving this car to work 15 years ago, I drove on the average between 180 and 200 miles a day back and forth to work, (I live in southern Arizona, long ways between towns) and I drove more than 600,000 miles over the coarse of 12 years, and I've worn out my share of vehicles. But I would have problems with the car every spring and fall whenever the oil companies would switch their fuel from the "summer" blend to the "winter" blend, (although it was never as bad as the problem I currently have. This particular car I drove for 4 years back and forth and put just over 200,000 miles on it before I retired it from commuter service.)
During that time I had a friend who worked for Unocal, and I had asked him about this once and he told me that it's the fuel, and that the fuel injected cars aren't affected nearly as much as the carbureted ones.
My point to all of this is that the fuel has changed, good or bad, and I need to figure out how to work with it now.

Anyway, I know for a fact that there are no leaks from the carb from any of the plugs, I've pulled the carb off when it was hot just to check for that problem, and it's definitely not coming from an overfull condition. It's a perculation/hot soak issue, as I've seen this with my own eyes. It wasn't easy to detect the signs as the problem is usually with fuel vapors, not necessarily with liquid fuel. But I had the air cleaner off after running the engine to get it hot again, and I was looking at the carb when I just happened to see a drop of fuel coming up to the tips of the discharge jets/nozzles. It was just a very small wet spot, but it didn't go away, it just moved around slightly like fuel does when it's evaporating, as usually just a drop of hot fuel would evaporate right away. And it wasn't dripping out of the discharge jet and onto the throttle plate like you would see if it was a flood issue, just a small droplet of fuel in the hole of the jets/nozzles. Once I saw that I restarted the engine and was finally able to see the fuel dripping erratically out of the discharge jets/nozzles while the engine was just idling, roughly I might add.
If this was a flooding problem, it would have killed the engine as it overflowed into the manifold, but the engine continued to run on.

I have tried a different carb, in fact 2 different ones, (I've also got 4 of carb #17084201, I believe in having spare parts, especially when the vehicle is as old as mine), and had the same result with it as well.

None of the throttle shafts on any of these carbs are completely wear free, but neither are they worn out to the extent that they would cause a problem.

As far as the power valve is concerned, the electronic Quadrajets don't use one. The M/C solenoid, (mixture control) eliminated the need for it.

I even swapped out the oxygen sensor with another known good one just to be sure that wasn't an issue.

Bottom line though is this, it is percolating the fuel in the float bowl once the engine is shut down, and dropping the float level/fuel level doesn't seem to have any effect on this problem. Neither does adding more of an insulating space/material between the carb and the manifold. I added 1/2 an inch with the addition of 4 of the thinner carb base gaskets in place of using the one thicker gasket that is usually used.
The under-hood temperature is more than this fuel can handle, and I need to know what if anything I can do to correct this.

As far as the airflow through the engine bay, there is the A/C condenser that I had cleaned up and straightened all of the cooling fins on when I replaced the compressor, so no restriction there.

The radiator is only a few years old and is a heavy duty unit, and I had flushed and cleaned it out as well when I serviced the A/C system.

The engine has a 195 degree thermostat, which is what it is supposed to have in order for the temp controlled emissions systems to function properly. Although the only thing that really is affected by the engine temperature are the 2 ported vacuum switches, one for the heat riser and the other for the smog pump diverter valve.

The car has a front air dam on it from the factory, which is part of the "Royal Knight" package. The car's color is a very hot maroon here in the southwest, and I know that doesn't help the problem either, but not much I can do to change that.

There is a factory fan shroud in place, and I have a heavy duty fan clutch and a 7 blade fan on it as well. The belts are all in great shape too.

This problem is occurring even without using the A/C too. I haven't been using it just because of this, but it doesn't seem to make a difference one way or another.

That's all I can think of that might play a part in the problem and gives you an idea of what I'm dealing with. I would sure appreciate any and all help in figuring this out.

Response From Hammer Time

I don't have time to read that whole book. The car is an 81. They have been unleaded compliant since 71. There's no problem with the fuel.

Response From cadptsman Top Rated Answer


I don't have time to read that whole book. The car is an 81. They have been unleaded compliant since 71. There's no problem with the fuel.

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You know, I read your thread on how you want to know as much information as possible in order to diagnose a problem, and so I tried to supply as much as I could, and I thought I covered just about all the possible questions you might have had as to what I could try. Now you tell me that it's too much information.
Then you asked about a power valve in an electric Quadrajet.

I realize that the last carburetor installed on a production car was in 1990, (the '90 Cadillac Brougham with the 307 Olds engine) but there are still a whole lot of them running around the country. And I know that me and my carbureted cars are dinosaurs, but I'm still here, and I'm looking for help from another old dinosaur on this problem.
Is there someone here that has actually seen and even worked on a carburetor before?

Response From Hammer Time

Is there someone here that has actually seen and even worked on a carburetor before?

OK smart ass. before you get too cocky, nowhere in your question do you state that is a Quadrajet or even 2BBL or 4BBL. Yes, you posted part numbers but if you expect anyone to recognize those 31 years later, good luck. I didn't even stop to think what carb you may have because you are not the only one I'm helping. I may help 30 to 40 people a day at this and other sites and do a lot of skimming through questions and giving quick answers.
Good luck with your problem.

Response From cadptsman



Is there someone here that has actually seen and even worked on a carburetor before?

OK smart ass. before you get too cocky, nowhere in your question do you state that is a Quadrajet or even 2BBL or 4BBL. Yes, you posted part numbers but if you expect anyone to recognize those 31 years later, good luck. I didn't even stop to think what carb you may have because you are not the only one I'm helping. I may help 30 to 40 people a day at this and other sites and do a lot of skimming through questions and giving quick answers.
Good luck with your problem.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fair enough, you're right, I didn't realize I had failed to mention the name Quadrajet in my original post. I guess it was an assumption on my part that since I knew what I was talking about, everybody else should, or would too. I'm sorry, I apologize for the attitude. And not to be a smart ass, but I did mention it in the second post, you apparently missed it.
So if possible, would you have any ideas on this problem now?

My thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Response From Hammer Time

You said you tried another carb. I assume that means a different M/C solenoid too? What do the plugs come out looking like?

Didn't you say earlier that you actually saw fuel leaking from the squirters?

Response From cadptsman

The plugs are actually not bad, only a little dark, not sooty or anything, I'm guessing that's because that after it's over the perculation issue once fresh fuel has cooled things down enough to stabilize it, it runs just fine. As long as it is running, no matter how hot is is outside, or under the hood, it really doesn't have any problems. And if I restart it after just a few minutes, like when I go grab a coffee at the circle K, it will run just fine. The problem is only after a lengthy hot soak of maybe 10 to 15 minutes or more.

And yes, with the other carb was another M/C solenoid and TPS, and I got the exact same result, it ran just fine, and would restart just fine if I did it within say 5 minutes or so, any longer and the hot soak screws it all up.

As for the fuel leaking, yes, it was dribbling from the main discharge nozzles at an idle after the hot soak restart.

Response From Hammer Time

I really don't know. You seem to have covered all the bases. Have you considered maybe trying a spacer plate under the carb? It's a long shot, but have you tried another computer?

Response From cadptsman


I really don't know. You seem to have covered all the bases. Have you considered maybe trying a spacer plate under the carb? It's a long shot, but have you tried another computer?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I hadn't tried another computer, although I do have one from another '81 I have. Because of the symptoms I didn't think it would help. The original one is still working just fine, and it will self diagnose as it should. I have an OTC 2000 tester that will plug into the ALDL and display all, or at least most of the working parameters on the various sensors, and even that won't give me any idea as to what is really going on. It's not a problem that will set a code, or at least it hasn't done so so far.
As far as a spacer goes, the only thing I've tried so far was the extra thick gasket stack as a test to see if it would really make a difference, but the answer is no, it didn't.
I've also got the factory service manual, and it doesn't even mention anything about a perculation issue or what to do about it.

That's why I'm pulling my hair out, it doesn't respond to anything I've tried so far.

Response From cadptsman

Is there maybe a fuel additive that would help this? Something to stabilize the fuel when it gets hot?

Response From Hammer Time

The fuel being the issue is your idea. I don't buy that at all. Yes, there are additives in the fuel that will leave deposits and damage fuel gauges but I don't belivee it can cause an issue like that.

Response From cadptsman

Here's a question for you, right now I have a cast iron intake manifold on this engine, but I do have a factory aluminum manifold that will fit it, identical to the cast iron one.

Do you think that changing to the aluminum manifold would cut back on the heat that the carburetor is getting?

Or would this just be a lot of work for a "maybe" solution?

One reason I hadn't put the aluminum manifold on in the first place was because it has some pitting on the rear areas that cover the water jacket openings on the rear of the heads. I can patch it up with some epoxy that is compatible with the aluminum and I believe it would be fine.

And thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions, I do appreciate it.

Response From Hammer Time

Do you think that changing to the aluminum manifold would cut back on the heat that the carburetor is getting?

Or would this just be a lot of work for a "maybe" solution?

I would say "yes" to both of those questions. It would cut back on heat but we don't know if that is going to help the situation or not.

Response From cadptsman



Do you think that changing to the aluminum manifold would cut back on the heat that the carburetor is getting?

Or would this just be a lot of work for a "maybe" solution?

I would say "yes" to both of those questions. It would cut back on heat but we don't know if that is going to help the situation or not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks again for your help, I'm going to see if I can repair this manifold, and if I can, I'll put it on and see what happens. I honestly don't know what else to do at this point. Everything you or I have thought to check I've done, not much left. I'll let you know how it works, or doesn't, as the case may be.

Response From Hammer Time

If you are really getting fuel boiling or leaking down on hot shutdown, then you should be able to see smokey fumes rising through the carb throat right after shutdown.

Response From cadptsman


If you are really getting fuel boiling or leaking down on hot shutdown, then you should be able to see smokey fumes rising through the carb throat right after shutdown.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know what you're talking about with the fumes, but that won't happen right away, the fuel needs to accumulate some and start to evaporate in the manifold. Most of the time when you actually see a good sized fume coming out of the manifold, it's after you've cracked the throttle to look into the manifold for liquid fuel and there is a pump shot from the accelerator hitting the hot crossover iron.

I've got another theory on what's going on with this thing. Once it's good and hot and shut down, the hot soak begins, making the fuel in the bowl AND in the fuel line expand and even begin to vaporize. The pressure in the fuel line goes up due to the expansion, and then the needle valve and float are hard pressed to keep it held back. Once the engine is started, the fuel pump is adding even more fuel and pressure to the line and you've got a recipe for percolation and fuel overflow from the carb.

I'm thinking what I'm going to try is installing one of those Chrysler fuel filters with the bleed off port on it, and run the line from that back to the fuel line on the car just upstream from the fuel pump. That way the fuel will return to the tank when the pressure goes up when the engine is off, and when the engine is running, it 's basically a recirculating system for anything over the bleed off pressure setting.
The only thing is, I gotta find out what those filters are set at. If I remember right, they were used on the early to mid 80's carbureted Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouths with the 4 bangers in them. I think they did that as a cheap way to return fuel to the tank instead of adding a pressure bleed off port on the mechanical fuel pump.

What think you of this idea?

Response From Tom Greenleaf

Didn't even read this whole thing. Fuel pressure is dictated right at the fuel pump with a plain spring. You don't need to alter that if OE designed it that way for any pressure issues.

Fuel will cooperate with a 1981 just some items don't care for the alcohol in current fuel otherwise not any part of the situation and octane rating would be available for what this required - probably 87 octane if not high altitude use only,

T

Response From cadptsman


Didn't even read this whole thing. Fuel pressure is dictated right at the fuel pump with a plain spring. You don't need to alter that if OE designed it that way for any pressure issues.

Fuel will cooperate with a 1981 just some items don't care for the alcohol in current fuel otherwise not any part of the situation and octane rating would be available for what this required - probably 87 octane if not high altitude use only,

T

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mean to be rude, but it would help if you read the whole thing to understand all of the issues we've discussed so far, but I understand you are busy as well. Hammer has been really helpful and patient with me and my problem here.

I guess I forgot to mention that the fuel pump on this El Camino is only a 2 line pump, 1 in, 1 out. So if the pressure in the line goes up due to excessive heat, it really has nowhere to go but into the carb. What I'm suggesting is to add a pressure relief to the line between the pump and carb by using a Chrysler inline fuel filter with a pressure relief port built into it.

Response From Tom Greenleaf

NO - if not some altered something the pressure will be handled by the fuel pump. It's not building up with heat but some could get hot in line causing vapor to be delivered and I have places the metal line (one) away with a new route on just one that acted up with heated fuel but only when hot enough and went away if you just drove it some but annoying.

Not that common and was called "vapor lock" about non existent lots older than this.....

T

Response From cadptsman


The fuel being the issue is your idea. I don't buy that at all. Yes, there are additives in the fuel that will leave deposits and damage fuel gauges but I don't belivee it can cause an issue like that.

So has there been anyone else that has had an issue with hot soaks or hard restarting on a carbureted vehicle? If so, do you recall what they did to resolve the issue? I'm open to any and all ideas on this.

Response From cadptsman

To clarify the color of the plugs, they are only dark on I guess it would be the side facing the intake, they're a slight rusty brown, but the rest of the plug is actually white.

Response From cadptsman

just a bit more history on this car, it has just under 310K on it now, not 307K, not that it matters. But in January of '06 it had just rolled over the 300K mark, and I've only driven it 10K in 6 years. I have 5 vehicles I keep running, so I don't need to drive this one daily. But when I do need it, I would like to be able to depend on it, and not even so much for me, but for my wife. I'm sure you've gotten that call from an angry spouse because the car has left her someplace and she has no idea as to what to do.
Sorry for running on here.

Response From cadptsman


I don't have time to read that whole book. The car is an 81. They have been unleaded compliant since 71. There's no problem with the fuel.


Thanks for your help.